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Being kind to others is good for your health

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Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When faced with a choice between: - causality is less widely applicable than we like to think - our behavior is more complex than we like to think I'm more inclined to doubt causality. Not that it's not a useful framework in general, but that is less useful when applied by humans to humans regarding human constructs like kindness.

What does that even mean? What's the difference between A and B? I assume You don't think a spirit comes down and mediates inter-human interactions- they're not beyond physics- but rather that they're "beyond causality" as in 'normal' models don't have as much predictive power as you'd hope? But if it's that, then I don't see a practical difference between both choices.

You're correct. I'm not proposing some kind of spooky process that can't be described in terms of causation.

But I am proposing that we should have some skepticism when importing an explanatory style that has worked well in physics and expecting it to perform equally well everywhere. I think we're likely to make mistakes of this sort:

If a cat's head appears from behind the couch, and then later its tail becomes visible--you wouldn't say that the cat's head caused the cat's tail--they're just different parts of the same phenomenon. We're familiar with cats, so we don't make this exact mistake, but I think that we are quite susceptible to misapplying causation to things that we don't understand well, like happiness.

Years ago I had this idea that many of our ideas about causation are flawed in this way. So I developed a habit of taking a causal claim that seems true, flipping the arrow around, and then testing the mutated hypothesis--just to see if it worked backwards. I was surprised by how often it did.

I don't have the data to convince you that the habit of mistrusting my instincts about causation and using "deep down, it probably goes both ways" as a heuristic has caused me to reap benefits that I would have otherwise ignored, but I suspect it strongly enough that I plan to keep doing it.

So the difference between the alternative perspectives is that if you're skeptical about the universal utility of causal nitpicking, you'll learn to recognize when you're wasting your time trying to prove that the laws of physics demand whatever you've noticed. You'll bail sooner on perspectives that don't work, and you'll be more creative about finding new ones.

On the other hand, if you demand a certain style of causal argument, you're more likely to double down against the opacity of human behavior to other humans. You'll design experiments and write articles that inspire further nitpicking about which is a cause and which is an effect, and the matter will remain in stasis--perhaps indefinitely--where its capacity to positively affect people's heath is limited.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to uncover underlying mechanisms when we can. When that's in cards it's pretty great. I'm just saying that we shouldn't always expect results of that sort to be within reach, and that reasoning from correlation alone can get us further than we tend to let it.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#222

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where…

Is that what stoics really taught or a modern misrepresentation, like "cynic"?

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#223
post #222

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where…

Is that what stoics really taught or a modern misrepresentation, like "cynic"?

The stoics came from the school of cynicism originally in Greek philosophy and were heavily influenced by it in the early days.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#224

The only issue that I have, is that so many people (in my industry/nation/orbit) mistake kindness for weakness. I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. They can be aggressively kind and generous. They are just aggressive. I'm also in the tech industry, which seems to have a very aggressive and competitive culture. It…

> They get very, very upset. Far more upset than if I had just disabused them early on.

I have experienced this a few times in relationships. Was brought up to always be courteous and kind. In our society those are the most admired qualities of a person. In the big world where people didn't grow up the same way I did I felt this is often misinterpreted for weakness. Trouble always starts when I "suddenly" do not budge from a position I believe in. An example is I do not believe in splashing my life on social media.

We were also brought up to be kind to visitors. Go out of your way to make them feel at home. We joke now as adults how the only time we had Coca-cola in the house was when we had visitors. The idea is a visitor shouldn't stay too long so it is best to be kind to them. The problem starts when visitors overstay and continue to expect the same treatment. Or they visit to often.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#225
post #127

The only issue that I have, is that so many people (in my industry/nation/orbit) mistake kindness for weakness. I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. They can be aggressively kind and generous. They are just aggressive. I'm also in the tech industry, which seems to have a very aggressive and competitive culture. It…

I have lived in NY, and my partner was born and grew up in NY, and I find New Yorkers pretty friendly, especially when compared to other cities around the world I've lived in (all of which have had their share of friendly folk). I think you have to be friendly to live cheek by jowl with so many. However New Yorkers are brisk. The tech industry has definitely become more aggressive over the last 20 years. I credit it…

NYC is the only ever place I have visited in the US. Perhaps everyone could see I was a tourist. I was impressed with how polite the people where. Was really impressed.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#229
post #222

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where…

Is that what stoics really taught or a modern misrepresentation, like "cynic"?

It's a modern misrepresentation. In fact, Stoicism encourages to help your neighbor.

From the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius:

> [...] Do not be carried along inconsiderately by the appearance of things, but give help to all according to thy ability and their fitness [...] (Book V)

> [...] Reverence the gods, and help men. Short is life. There is only one fruit of this terrene life, a pious disposition and social acts. [...] ( Book VI )

You can read the full ebook here [1] (I'd link to project Gutenberg but unfortunately they're still blocking German readers). Alas.

[1] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation...

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The variables here are: * where your boundaries lie along the spectrum from self-serving to doormat * your propensity to be generous to people on the good side of your boundaries I myself trend close to what you'd call a stoic. Probably out of fear of being a doormat. My boundaries are healthyish, but I don't quite trust them. So I don't seek out help from others, and in return I hope they don't ask for generosity fr…

I found the clarity of your thinking and writing refreshing, it's rare for someone to observe and recognize these archetypes. I by and large agree with how you see it. One thing jumped out: >> I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. and >> My advice would be that if…

>> My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about personality traits from others, take it seriously.

This is bland and simple advice at best, that only serves the 'groups' best interest, not the individual.

Half the people you meet are below average intelligence, I'd strongly advise not listening to at least half of what people have to say. The other half could also be giving self-serving advice that isn't in your best interest.

My advice is to ignore everyone.

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