Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy? • Hacker News Board

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#201

Post by schwartzworld » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #178

schwartzworld wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that you say that because I have long thought Spotify kills discovery. In the 90s, I discovered a lot of great music because it was playing at a listening station at a record store, or because I was browsing through the ska-punk section and liked the cover art, or by flipping through a friend's CD collection. A lot of my early tastes came from gems I found in my parents old records. It was also really common to…

Cover art has virtually nothing to do with quality (and is accessible on spotify). How much money did you pay for records that you ended up not liking? It is so easy to expose yourself to new music on spotify. Far easier than relying on whatever handful of records happened to be in the listening station.

> Cover art has virtually nothing to do with quality

Fair enough, and yet I probably never would have listened to "Chocolate and Cheese" without seeing the album in front of me.

> (and is accessible on spotify).

It's not the same. Come on.

> It is so easy to expose yourself to new music on spotify. Far easier than relying on whatever handful of records happened to be in the listening station

I agree, and yet, something about choosing from albums curated by store staff felt better to me than being fed music curated by an algorithm like a goose being stuffed for fois gras.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#202

Post by cinquemb » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

temp0826 wrote: post #119

cinquemb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soundcloud solves discovery for me. Every week I look through their search for words i filter on and sample all the songs (40-100 songs, maybe takes 1-2 hours at most) and download them if I like them (some weeks none, some weeks more than others), follow the artist if I like more than a couple (and what they are liking and re-posting), and occasionally pay the artist directly for files even if I already downloaded i…

I agree with you. SoundCloud is a breath of fresh air pending you don’t mind the underproduction. I’m relatively new to it (and didn’t understand the social aspects of it until recently), but it was pleasant to see this whole world of artists just doing their thing, as opposed to listening to the same regurgitated stuff we’re all used to. I still get a hankering for my old favorites and use spotify often when I’m in…

> SoundCloud is a breath of fresh air pending you don’t mind the underproduction.

The music I like I can't really find anywhere else to higher degree and ease (occasionally I might find it on youtube, just available on bandcamp, or have to message the artist) so its not really applicable.

> It was pleasant to see this whole world of artists just doing their thing

This is what I like the most, reminds me of FOSS: artists all over the world doing their own thing and occasionally doing it together.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#203

Post by Melting_Harps » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 2:03 AM UTC

fabbari wrote: post #111

Melting_Harps wrote: post #95

Or you know... a large part of small business who once used this service in their stores/shops no longer exist, and the 25%+ of unemployed people, and God only knows all over the World, had to make cut backs to non-essential expenses. Streaming services like Spotify never really made sense to me as business model, for the artists it could be a double edged sword at best if they get the desired exposure and total wast…

A bit of a tangent here. I remember the TV commercials by music labels in the early days of online piracy telling people: "If you download music you're killing the little music shops in your neighborhood!". The moment labels moved to online streaming, the little shops in your neighborhood could go and f*** off. The irony was never lost on me.

> The irony was never lost on me.

As mentioned I came from a music scene that incidentally has its roots from pirate radio, literately guys climbing towers and hi-jacking frequencies in London to broadcast locally as well as online streaming, illegal underground raves so it was typical to see how this very same group of artists and DJs had their own labels to bypass the gatekeepers/middlemen as the sound was too 'strange,' but would eventually get coprorate backing after it became profitable and Red Bull even dcreated an academy for many of the pioneers.

I really thought we would have done away with large labels and middlemen in this Industry by now, because while I only know this 2nd hand touring catches up to you; especially as many went from being teenagers/20-somethings with no responsibilities to middle aged parents so touring becomes impractical and often detrimental to any chance of any work-life balance.

But, yeah it was clear they never cared about the mom and pop and it was always about protecting thier archiac business model. And I really think our DNB and Dubstep scene kept many independent shops and mastering/pressing afloat and it was a big part of the resurgence in vinyl in the 2000s we saw. Even now I get a chuckle of seeing the limited color pressing offers/pre-buys on Bandcamp as almost no one who DJs is on vinyl anymore, unless it's their gimmick, so when it sells out you know its just fans buying them up. So why do we need these people now that distribution and fees can be reduced to what they are now on bandcamp and PR/booking tours is no longer the only thing that made those relationships remotely tolerable?

If you haven't already done so, check out Grimes interview with Andrew Yang. It was kind of interesting hearing her view on things as Canada promotes its local talent and the State gives them grants, which is incredibly odd but kind of novel way of doing things if it generates local demand for events and record sales which they benefit from in tax revenue.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#204

Post by UncleMeat » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 3:04 AM UTC

schwartzworld wrote: post #201

UncleMeat wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cover art has virtually nothing to do with quality (and is accessible on spotify). How much money did you pay for records that you ended up not liking? It is so easy to expose yourself to new music on spotify. Far easier than relying on whatever handful of records happened to be in the listening station.

> Cover art has virtually nothing to do with quality Fair enough, and yet I probably never would have listened to "Chocolate and Cheese" without seeing the album in front of me. > (and is accessible on spotify). It's not the same. Come on. > It is so easy to expose yourself to new music on spotify. Far easier than relying on whatever handful of records happened to be in the listening station I agree, and yet, somethi…

> It's not the same. Come on.

I never bought records, only CDs. My memory is small and low resolution cover art. Browsing album covers on spotify on anything bigger than a tablet will show the art at a bigger scale with better colors.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#205

Post by UncleMeat » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 3:10 AM UTC

daniellarusso wrote: post #157

vpilcx wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The younger generation has no concept of listening to a song you "don't like" 50 times, simply because you listened to the album you purchased 100 times. I'm not below the age of 25 but this seems like a really archaic statement. This is basically equivalent to "Kids these days have no idea what it means to have to watch commercials and shows you didn't want to watch to get to that show you were really looking forw…

There was a comment here a few months ago about a person bringing their young child to visit somebody in the hospital. The patient had a TV in their room, so they handed the child the TV remote, and the child asked how can they fast-forward the current show.

But what's the harm in this? Before DVRs there were plenty of times when I was interested in watching TV but nothing interesting was on. This wasn't some well of untapped discovery to be cherished. It was just 2pm and all that was on was soap operas.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#206

Post by m463 » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 3:33 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #155

m463 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's nothing stopping you from having both! Actually it seems the entire music industry including the distributors don't want sales - they seem to prefer streaming. I remember when apple music came out and I couldn't listen to my music anymore

Apple seemingly did some screwy things with Apple Match and so forth and I've had to fix up some things in my library as a result. (I actually have a batch of CDs I need to re-rip.) But what's there today seems to work pretty well separating what I have my own copies of vs. what I only have available via Apple Music. Though maybe you're saying something differently. I think the music industry is perfectly happy to se…

I believe when apple music came out my music disappeared and I never put music on my phone since. (I just used a usb stick in the car from then on)

I think the music industry doesn't care anymore about selling music - why sell you a song for $1 (that you might copy for your friends) if they can sell you the same song again and again every month?

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#207

Post by magicalhippo » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 7:44 AM UTC

tayo42 wrote: post #200

magicalhippo wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I took your "new" a bit too literally. My point was simply that I think there's a lot of great music out there being made as we speak. Does it sound similar to what was made 20 years ago? Certainly not everything, but that's where I am with my tastes at the moment. > The fact you are giving me band camp links only strengthens the point im saying. I gave Bandcamp links because that's where I get all my music f…

> Major as in there's not a lot of really big acts, ala say Kiss or Van Halen, then sure. Is that so surprising? This is what I mean, popularity of rock is dead compared to what it is has been. There is no innovation in genre, nothing is captivating. There is no new and modern sound to rock. Those bands did something different. There isn't an audience anymore to support that kind of band and there is nothing worth su…

> there might be more punk bands then ever before but if they all sound the same, who cares?

> Maybe bands needs to go underground for a bit for a new sound to emerge.

I think this is what I'm trying to get at. The advent of affordable recording sessions and affordable world-wide distribution and marketing (internet) means the underground has become less underground.

Before acts would rise from the underground to the radio with a fresh new sound, but I'm pretty sure if you put them in the scene they came from you'd say "they all sound the same" as well.

They all sound the same today because the radio filter has been removed, and you can experience all of it in a way you couldn't before. So the gradual changes and differences don't get a chance to build up to a radical difference before people hear it.

IMHO this is great, as for me it means I can find a lot more music that I enjoy.

But it would seem it has made it more difficult for you to find the next stand-out thing to enjoy.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#208

Post by schwartzworld » Sun, Dec 20, 2020, 10:48 AM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #204

schwartzworld wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cover art has virtually nothing to do with quality Fair enough, and yet I probably never would have listened to "Chocolate and Cheese" without seeing the album in front of me. > (and is accessible on spotify). It's not the same. Come on. > It is so easy to expose yourself to new music on spotify. Far easier than relying on whatever handful of records happened to be in the listening station I agree, and yet, somethi…

> It's not the same. Come on. I never bought records, only CDs. My memory is small and low resolution cover art. Browsing album covers on spotify on anything bigger than a tablet will show the art at a bigger scale with better colors.

It's not the size. It's tangibility. Album art on Spotify is metadata. It's incidental. I don't notice it. On a CD it's part of the presentation.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#209

Post by comprev » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

satyrnein wrote: post #193

comprev wrote: post #103

I don't use streaming services because I disagree with their insulting revenue for the artists. Fortunately I've always been one to seek out more underground artists, and platforms like Bandcamp have been amazing. Not only do the artists get an order of magnitude more revenue, sellers can offer merchandise and physical media (vinyl, CD, cassette) too. These often include a digital copy. Due to the closer connection b…

I'm not sure why it would be an order of magnitude more money. Bandcamp takes 10-15% while Spotify takes 30%. So potentially 90 cents on the dollar instead of 70. Unless you're including other factors?

Bandcamp relies on fans buying the music, whereas Spotify relies on streams. It can take thousands of streams to reach the same cash that goes to the artist after one purchase.

Re: Streaming Is Stalling: Can Music Keep Up in the Attention Economy?

#210

Post by J0_k3r » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

foepys wrote: post #67

J0_k3r wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you're a youtuber or streamer who listens to a variety of different music, are you really going to pay to license every one of your favorite songs for business use? No. Instead they go to No Copyright Sounds or Kevin McLeod and grab their stuff instead because why are you going to sacrifice that money to license the music when you're small and starting out?

When streamers are streaming, they are working. If you want to listen to your favorite music, you can do that in your own private time. In a business context, other rules apply. > why are you going to sacrifice that money to license the music when you're small and starting out Does this also apply to utility bills? Just use non-copyrighted music. If that isn't enough, you need to pay or just live with it.

\>Does this also apply to utility bills?

If people could cut costs by using electricity that isn't from their local state monopoly then definitely.

\>Just use non-copyrighted music. If that isn't enough, you need to pay or just live with it.

The original post is complaining about a lack of discovery, and you don't seem to care about finding any sort of solution to the problem originally posed.

No one's going to pay to advertise your crap, thus no one is going to listen to it.