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The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

anandtech.com

251–260 of 266 posts

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#251
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beefy CPU, couple TB of HDDs and an SSD to boot off of: (comfortably) host your own private cloud. And probably a instance for your friends & family too if you're feeling adventurous. Via authenticated Tor Hidden Services, for optimum easy-safe ratio. Now the value of a private cloud is a subjective question, true, but personal experience suggests having it right there on home lan encourages practical use, especially…

all of that could be trivially done on a raspberry pi for $30 instead of a massively overspeced ARM server for $10000

I agree, that's what I'm rocking: a bunch of 8gig pi's doing everything from RAM, and a threadripper DB server. All at home, all for 200/month more than electricity + the cost of hours needed.

The same setup with a more reasonably priced consumer proc (but no ECC) would be around 1.5k out front.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#252

er. so how much for 1u chassis, 512gb ram, 2 x 1tb nvme, 4 x 10gbe nic, dual psu? what can i run on this? proxmox? kubernetes? or 4u chassis, 128gb ram, 2 x 128gb nvme, 4 x 10gbe nic, 100 x 16tb sata ? what can i run on this? centos? Ubuntu? zfs? gluster?

https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-altra-mt-jade.html

They've only got the 2U and no SATA, but that page prices up the rest of your specs.

You can run CentOS, Ubuntu, ZFS and Gluster.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#253
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ThunderX was a huge disappointment. ThunderX2 (which one may think is the successor of ThunderX, but is actually a completely different system that Cavium obtained by acquiring a different company that was also working on ARMv8 hardware) was a (not so huge) disappointment. Cavium tried to copy-paste lots of coprocessors and offload things from the CPU, but the overall system was not that great. Early AMD Softiron and…

> But Ampere's previous generation (before N1) is fast, much faster than the ThunderX2. I think you're getting ThunderX2 and ThunderX mixed up here.

In my experience, for tasks like everyday operation, kernel building etc.: Thunderx I wouldn't say it's the same order of magnitude for the 2 comparisons, but it's definitely noticeable.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#254

So how are the cores interconnected? As ARM server designs love to throw out tens to hundreds of cores which sounds good on paper, but are not really useful to lots of workloads as they have a shit interconnect or lots of NUMA nodes. Interconnect is key, e.g., see the improvements between zen2 and zen3, especially for the `4 An anecdote: I got some hands on a box with a Cavium ThunderX2 96 logical core processor abou…

This is a serious problem. On-die interconnect requires insane bandwidth and lots of caches. We're talking TB/s to keep cores fed. This is significant challenge (source: I worked on Intel Xeon Phi) and at the time I worked on it in 2007 (pre-name-change), there was not a lot of empirical data, just lots of simulations, guard-bands and finger crossing.

What are guard-bands?

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a serious problem. On-die interconnect requires insane bandwidth and lots of caches. We're talking TB/s to keep cores fed. This is significant challenge (source: I worked on Intel Xeon Phi) and at the time I worked on it in 2007 (pre-name-change), there was not a lot of empirical data, just lots of simulations, guard-bands and finger crossing.

What are guard-bands?

At the time the validation models were not very mature so they moved everything up to higher metal layers with big-ass drivers and designed for worst-case. I'm sure Intel has a much better handle on it now (they ain't dummies!), but back then the orders were "don't let the ring(s) throttle the cores".

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#256
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD is doing fine. "The writing on the wall". Zen3 is going to very competitive, their interconnect on chip is great. Sure, add a line for ARM. What's interesting to me, I feel like a lot of this started when intel wouldn't do the chip for the iphone. All of a sudden you had this leading edge mfg pushing arm hard which drove volumes through the roof, and all the copycats (android etc) copied the chip selection, scree…

> I wonder how different the path might have been if intel had come up with something for apple. They kind of tried and failed. Intel is completely stuck in their "x86 is the only way" culture. x86 just can't compete in the low power space. For phones, the x86 power requirements made it effectively DOA. Sure, Atom could have competed with arm in some markets (small laptops for example, they had some success in the ea…

The issue is this. Apple asked intel to make the chip for the iphone. If you partner with apple on this, then, together, and with billions of dollars, your entire ecosystem improves even if you were not originaly the best.

When you do this type of deal, you get to work with top class engineers and real major customer driving your power / efficiency story.Intel at the time had the process node advantage as well.

What's happened is Apple has SIGNIFICANTLY funded massive capital investment in the ARM ecosystem and in non-intel fab because now those non-intel providers are critical. Imagine all that money flowing to intel just on fab side.

Rumors around TSMC and Apple for iphones is that Apple funds some of the capacity at TSMC and pays for leading nodes. I'm not sure of the scale of Apple's orders, but they are going to be meaningful both in quantity and what apple is willing to pay.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#257
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the historical benchmarks of the non-apple ARM chips, though they're clearly behind apple, they have largely kept pace. Huawei was perhaps even closing the gap before the trade war knocked them out of contention. I don't think apple was really all that special in this regard. They were ahead of the curve, which is impressive, but the market was created by arm, not just apple. I doubt we'd be seeing thi…

They really haven't–Apple has slowly gained on, then outpaced them over the last several years. Apple's chips these days "lap" others, where the best that competitors have to offer perform poorer than last year's design.

The 888 (the first qualcomm chip on the same 5nm process) has approximately equivalent performance (91%) to the Apple A14 in multicore benchmarks, and 71% of the single-thread geekbench 5 score. source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16325/qualcomm-discloses-snap...

If you look a few years ago, a similar comparison would be the snapdragon 820 vs. Apples A9 (both on samsung's 14nm process, though apple was dual sourcing with TSMC 16nm). Then, the iphone 6s plus scored 535, and the oneplus 3 (using the 820) scores 306 - i.e. 57% of apples performance. On multicore it achieved 77% of the performance (also a larger difference than today).

Qualcomm has been catching up lately on single-thread and multithread perf, just not very quickly (i mean at this rate it'll be well over a decade before they're equal in single thread perf...).

Sources: https://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks and https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks, search for oneplus 3 and iphone 6s plus.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#258
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the historical benchmarks of the non-apple ARM chips, though they're clearly behind apple, they have largely kept pace. Huawei was perhaps even closing the gap before the trade war knocked them out of contention. I don't think apple was really all that special in this regard. They were ahead of the curve, which is impressive, but the market was created by arm, not just apple. I doubt we'd be seeing thi…

> If you look at the historical benchmarks of the non-apple ARM chips, though they're clearly behind apple, they have largely kept pace. Not really. Look at the difference between Apple's "little" cores and the stock ARM "little" core. >The performance showcased here roughly matches a 2.2GHz Cortex-A76 which is essentially 4x faster than the performance of any other mobile SoC today which relies on Cortex-A55 cores,…

Apple is wealthy and powerful, and gets the cream of the crop - i.e. the first batch of the new 5nm output. This isn't new, apple always releases their models a few months before equivalent snapdragons come out. This is a meaningful advantage, to be sure, but if you're trying to figure out how much apple's perf win is due to their great chips and not merely a generational gap, it's misleading. Comparing the s10 today, which is clearly on a inferior process to the iphone 12 pro today isn't useful from this perspective. It's better to compare the upcoming 5nm 888 to apples A14.

And here, the numbers just don't back up the claim that apple is running rings around qualcomm in terms of performance. Not just that; the difference between apple+qualcomm chips hasn't changed all that dramatically over the years; if anything it's gotten smaller.

Yes, if you look at power at equivalent performance that looks better for apple, but then that's always the case because nobody runs client side CPUs at an optimal perf/watt power, but faster. It's also not really how people use their phones, is it? People don't turn off the high-power cores in iphones; they use em as designed, i.e. at approximately equivalent power, just faster.

The point here isn't that Apple's win doesn't exist; simply that it's not the mythological night-day difference it's sometimes painted to be. Furthermore, because apple consistently releases earlier on a new process node, at the moment of their release the perf numbers look better than they are on average over the products lifetime; in effect, you're seeing the combination of both Apple's good CPUs, and a 1 generation gap. Then there's the fact that Apple's CPU's are so fast due not solely to the skill of their silicon division, but also their willingness to spend for more transistors. We don't have numbers for the 888 yet, but it's very likely going to be a lower-cost design if history is any guide (and the anandtech article goes into some other non-obvious ways in which is saves costs too, like power planes, that I bet apple is willing to go the extra mile on).

All that matters, because you're trying to predict how other CPUs will perform, and thus need to tease out the impact of stuff like process node, and apples willingness to spend extra on larger caches, and x86 vs ARM - and just ascribing all that perf uplift to apples magic pixie dust won't help you make predictions regarding the rest of the CPU market in the future.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#259
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at the historical benchmarks of the non-apple ARM chips, though they're clearly behind apple, they have largely kept pace. Not really. Look at the difference between Apple's "little" cores and the stock ARM "little" core. >The performance showcased here roughly matches a 2.2GHz Cortex-A76 which is essentially 4x faster than the performance of any other mobile SoC today which relies on Cortex-A55 cores,…

Apple is wealthy and powerful, and gets the cream of the crop - i.e. the first batch of the new 5nm output. This isn't new, apple always releases their models a few months before equivalent snapdragons come out. This is a meaningful advantage, to be sure, but if you're trying to figure out how much apple's perf win is due to their great chips and not merely a generational gap, it's misleading. Comparing the s10 today…

> We don't have numbers for the 888 yet

The 888 uses the same Cortex-A55 cores mentioned above (the same core all the Android SOCs have been using for a couple of years now) with Apple having a 4x performance win at the same power levels.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#260
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is wealthy and powerful, and gets the cream of the crop - i.e. the first batch of the new 5nm output. This isn't new, apple always releases their models a few months before equivalent snapdragons come out. This is a meaningful advantage, to be sure, but if you're trying to figure out how much apple's perf win is due to their great chips and not merely a generational gap, it's misleading. Comparing the s10 today…

> We don't have numbers for the 888 yet The 888 uses the same Cortex-A55 cores mentioned above (the same core all the Android SOCs have been using for a couple of years now) with Apple having a 4x performance win at the same power levels.

Do you have a citation for that? Benchmarks don't typically target the efficiency cores.

In any case, I think it's tricky to read to much into microbenchmarks like this; the overal system perf in any case does not have anything near like that perf difference, but instead a slowly shrinking gap (as described before, and supported by links to evidence).

I'm still curious about those efficiency cores mind you, even if I don't think it has much impact on the overall point. Also, one of the things qualcomm intentionally skimps on is powerplanes, I'm assuming for cost reasons - and that means low-perf power will be suboptimal. Then again, I'm not sure how much that matters.

(Don't forget the context of the Altera ARM server CPU and what it means for intel/AMD; efficiency cores probably don't tell a very meaningful story of qualcomm vs. apple, but certainly don't apply in that space, yet).

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