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The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

anandtech.com

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Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#111

So how are the cores interconnected? As ARM server designs love to throw out tens to hundreds of cores which sounds good on paper, but are not really useful to lots of workloads as they have a shit interconnect or lots of NUMA nodes. Interconnect is key, e.g., see the improvements between zen2 and zen3, especially for the `4 An anecdote: I got some hands on a box with a Cavium ThunderX2 96 logical core processor abou…

This is a dumb question. But as you've said, cores per die has a strong influence on how performant a system is and that's because of the processor interconnects. My question is, what are the processors saying to each other?

Its not so much "processors" talking to each other as caches.

The basic theory is called "MESI": Modified / Exclusive / Shared / Invalid. When a remote core reads a cache-line, if no one else has that cache-line then its the Exclusive owner. But if multiple caches have the cache-line, then it is a Shared cache line instead. If a remote cache changes, then your current cache-line becomes Invalid, while the cache line that's valid is placed into the Modified state (cache is correct, RAM is incorrect).

MESI isn't how things are done in practice: additional messages and states are piled on top in proprietary ways. But MESI will get you to the "basic textbook" concept at least.

EDIT: Oh, and "snooping". Caches "snoop" on each other's communications, which helps keep the MESI state up to date. Now you can have directory-based snooping (kind of a centralized push), or rings, or whatever. Those details are proprietary and change from chip to chip. In practice, these details are almost never published, so your best bet to understanding is "Something MESI-like is going on..."

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#112
post #103
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that’s a statement refuted by the article in which it appears, though. The Ampere system is clearly not suited to latency-sensitive application services, unless you’re just looking to double your latency for no reason. If you looked at these specjbb results because you’re shopping for Java backend servers then you’re buying Xeon yet again.

It's not refuted, because Ampere isn't the only competitor. The statement is that with AMD EPYC and Ampere Altra as options, Intel Xeon loses everywhere.

I don't really think that's a supportable statement. The Xeon's outlier latency on specjbb is superior until it hits its throughput limits. A lot of machines are bought on the basis of latency, not throughput.

Also you really have to grind your teeth to get past AnandTech's habit of comparing, on a performance-per-dollar basis, just whatever CPU that happen to have laying around. The entire reason the Xeon Platinum costs $10000 is because it scales to 8 sockets, a level needed only by people who have backed themselves into a corner with Oracle or SAP and who now need a gigantic single host at any price. Anyone who was actually planning to build a 2-socket server would choose the Xeon Gold 6258R with the same core count, the same cache, higher clocks, and less than half the price. Suddenly when you make a comparison to a comparable product, you find that Intel has the cheapest product of the three, along with certain favorable performance aspects.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#113
post #59

Commercial Warning... Just in case anyone is interested in obtaining their own Altra system, they are available for pre-order here: https://store.avantek.co.uk/arm-servers.html

How about the Q32-17? For $800, it sounds like a pretty decent server and I am interested.

Bet you $5 it will be absolutely annihilated in any benchmark by a $800 threadripper or epyc on a single socket server motherboard.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#114

This line is the kicker for me: "Intel’s current Xeon offering simply isn’t competitive in any way or form at this moment in time." The rest of the paragraph twists the knife more, and declares there to be an open market on server hardware for AMD and Ampere to fight it out. With application stacks being what they are and optimizations for Xeon so deeply integrated, it's unlikely that folks running private datacenter…

[deleted]

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#115
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Chromebooks did ARM years before Apple, no?

Yes but they were terrible. Just being ARM isn't some kind of magic dust. It has to actually be fast.

How are Exynos chromebooks terrible?

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#116
post #75

This line is the kicker for me: "Intel’s current Xeon offering simply isn’t competitive in any way or form at this moment in time." The rest of the paragraph twists the knife more, and declares there to be an open market on server hardware for AMD and Ampere to fight it out. With application stacks being what they are and optimizations for Xeon so deeply integrated, it's unlikely that folks running private datacenter…

AMD should see the writing on the wall and start designing ARM CPUs. I think that would be very exciting because they have the engineering expertise and talent necessary to compete against Apple's M1. I don't know of any other company that can do that (besides Intel, but you know...). Additionally, there is a huge hole open right now for ARM on everything else that is not an Apple product. Apple normalized ARM on con…

AMD is doing fine. "The writing on the wall". Zen3 is going to very competitive, their interconnect on chip is great.

Sure, add a line for ARM.

What's interesting to me, I feel like a lot of this started when intel wouldn't do the chip for the iphone. All of a sudden you had this leading edge mfg pushing arm hard which drove volumes through the roof, and all the copycats (android etc) copied the chip selection, screen style etc as well.

I wonder how different the path might have been if intel had come up with something for apple.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#117
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows on arm64 systems aren't locked down. Meanwhile for arm64 Macs, they aren't either. Yesterday, https://twitter.com/xenokovah/status/1339914714055368704?s=2... was released to run unsigned kernels.

It's encouraging to see an effort like this, but unless it can become a first-class citizen on M1 hardware, it will be at best like trying to keep an iDevice jailbroken, or having a custom Android ROM that lacks important basic functionality like VoLTE. One can hope, I guess. If I could be sure I could run Linux without it being hobbled, and that Apple wouldn't pull the rug out from under me, I could actually see mys…

That was a restriction for 32-bit Arm Windows devices, which were indeed locked down. (I ended up breaking the Secure Boot implementation for Windows RT devices later on, and they didn't bother to fix it)

For 64-bit Arm Windows devices, they had the security policies of a conventional PC since the very beginning.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#118
post #82
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD should see the writing on the wall and start designing ARM CPUs. I think that would be very exciting because they have the engineering expertise and talent necessary to compete against Apple's M1. I don't know of any other company that can do that (besides Intel, but you know...). Additionally, there is a huge hole open right now for ARM on everything else that is not an Apple product. Apple normalized ARM on con…

The RISC-V ISA would be the better bet. a. They start investing now and they can have some leverage in the spec. b. The spec is minimal and open to expansion that it sets itself up for more domain specific processors. Which we will be seeing alot more of thanks to the slowing of transistors per dollar growth. c. There is a pretty big theme of moving toward more open and democratized standards in tech. d. They would b…

I'd love to see RISC-V or another open source ISA become the dominant design. But I'm not sure RISC-V is there yet. Companies have been pouring resources into optimizing ARM CPUs for years now, and they're now starting to get to the point where their performance competitive with x86. RISC-V is just getting started. I don't know if there's a RISC-V CPU that's comes anywhere close to the raw performance of higher end ARM CPUs, nevermind x86.

Having said that, I hope AMD doesn't decide not to develop a RISC-V CPU. I'd expect them to have the resources to start working on ARM now, while planning for RISC-V further out.

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#119

This line is the kicker for me: "Intel’s current Xeon offering simply isn’t competitive in any way or form at this moment in time." The rest of the paragraph twists the knife more, and declares there to be an open market on server hardware for AMD and Ampere to fight it out. With application stacks being what they are and optimizations for Xeon so deeply integrated, it's unlikely that folks running private datacenter…

are there any good articles about what has gone so, so wrong at intel in the last few years?

Re: The Ampere Altra Review: 2x 80 Cores Arm Server Performance Monster

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but they were terrible. Just being ARM isn't some kind of magic dust. It has to actually be fast.

How are Exynos chromebooks terrible?

They're slow. The only thing a Chromebook has is a web browser. The browser performance of e.g. the Samsung Chromebook 2 was less than half that of its contemporary competitors, and a modern Chromebook with an Intel Core CPU is 5-10x faster.

Exynos didn't even manage to be the fastest ARM CPU in a Chromebook. The Tegra K1 was a bit quicker.

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