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Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

latimes.com

121–130 of 130 posts

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#121

FAA seems like it has really let america down. The Max 8 thing and now they've sat on their hands for almost 2 decades after being ordered to assess the way pilots are being poisoned.

The FAA delegated safety to mfgs. (ODM), which in general doesn't work as well as expected. The actual 737 Max design problems were caused by Boeing, then false documents were filed with the FAA, so you could argue that beyond the ODM system, Boeing deliberately misled the FAA, subverting the safety certification process. The challenge with cockpit/cabin air quality is that fundamentally air flows from high pressure…

According to the article, one main culprit, known to the airline mfgs, is the typical location of the air intakes means that a leaking seal can lead to toxic organics spreading to the cabin. In fact, they cite the novel intake location on the 787 dream liners as avoiding this air quality issue.

A first step to investigating how serious of an issue the air quality is during fume events would be to actually measure the air quality during fume events, which congress instructed/mandated the FAA do in 2003, per the article. But to paraphrase, the airlines told the FAA to take a hike, and they obeyed.

If the mfg can repeatedly mislead the regulators and the airlines they are purportedly regulating can tell them to pound sand when they try to investigate, it means the regulators are failing. Yes it also means Boeing is in the wrong and the airlines, but it means the FAA has dropped the ball.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the statement that gas flows along pressure gradients... temperature flows along temperature gradients... why does that standard behavior change anything in the analysis.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#122
post #71
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the battery of the detector is not too big, there should be no problem. I did bring an oscilloscope (with probes and all) and lot of other electronics with no issues. The only piece of electronics TSA checked longly was a half broken laptop with no battery. This really intrigued them (so it got re xrayed and the full strip test plus hands and clothes).

I once brought a sun netra 4U server, unboxed, onto the plane and somehow got it up in the overhead. Full length 4U... weighed about 70 lbs. San Jose to dc ... pre 911 ...

Ok you win by what... 40 lbs

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#123
post #66
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea what that lubricant is?

There are a variety of lubricants, but it is believed that the primary contributor to the problem is the organophosphate (Tricresyl phosphates - TCP / e.g. Durad 125[1]) added as an anti-wear additive. TCP is a known neurotoxin: "It is a toxic substance that causes neuropathy, paralysis in the hands and feet, and/or death for humans and animals alike. It can be ingested, inhaled, or even absorbed through the skin." […

[deleted]

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#125

> Senior Boeing engineers worried that data from sensors would prove damaging in lawsuits by sick passengers and crew members, according to internal emails and sworn depositions obtained by The Times. Oh, definitely nothing to do with Boeing’s consistently poor management, an engineer thought up not implementing sound technical safeguards because of imaginary lawsuits. Bullshit.

Senior engineers frequently align with poor management.

For example, in March 2018, Jeff Dean defended Google making Tensor Flow video analysis software for the US military (to use to decide which Pakistani families to assassinate [0]). He calmly and normally presented the technology. When he presented his rationalization for the project, he blinked continuously. I think he was lying.

Having a senior engineering position in a large company does not imply integrity.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#126

To be honest, even just the amount of jetfuel fumes you take in while on board waiting to push off the from the gate bothers the hell out of me. I think that's just because the jetway connector mostly has unconditioned exterior air and with the door open, that makes its way into the cabin, but it can be very nauseating.

Bonus points to SEATAC for conditioning the jetway air. Few airports do this.

I'd seen an ad about this in the airport but wasn't sure whether it had to do with the bleed issue. Seems not: "A jet bridge (also termed jetway, jetwalk, airgate, gangway, aerobridge/airbridge, skybridge, airtube, or its official industry name passenger boarding bridge (PBB)) is an enclosed, movable connector which most commonly extends from an airport terminal gate to an airplane"

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#127
post #4

Can we please change the click bait headline to reflect what actually happened

Such as? It looks like what I just read, how about you

The occurrence rate on this is so small, you have a better chance of inhaling fumes from the editors car on the way to LAX then you do of this actually happening IRL.

If an engine bleed is sucking in fumes, there are much bigger issues, like the law of gravity and being 30k feet above a hard surface.

When I see articles like this written so poorly and based on crap science, I usually look for alternative motive. In this case, I can only speculate... Like what on earth?

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#128

FAA seems like it has really let america down. The Max 8 thing and now they've sat on their hands for almost 2 decades after being ordered to assess the way pilots are being poisoned.

Oh, and now it appears something questionable went on with the recertification of the max 8. The congressional committee "concluded Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing officials “had established a pre-determined outcome to reaffirm a long-held human factor assumption related to pilot reaction time ... It appears, in this instance, FAA and Boeing were attempting to cover up important information that may have contributed to the 737 MAX tragedies.”

And this point: "The committee also said “multiple independent whistleblowers contacted the committee to allege FAA senior management was complicit in determining the 737 MAX training certification level prior to any evaluation.”"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737-max/boeing-ina...

Hah and someone down voted my upper comment without saying why. The FAA has serious issues.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO detectors are very compact and could be taken on board with the hand luggage.

The concern isn't about CO.

With enough proof that life threatening fumes are released court proceedings can be brought forward.
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