Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#91

Post by bluedevil2k » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #74

bluedevil2k wrote: post #23

I'm curious if sleep aids, whether it's OTC like melatonin or Rx like trazodone and Ambien, can help this situation. Is it just the sleep that's beneficial or is it "natural" sleep (that term doesn't mean anything, but you get the point of it)? In other words, should people who have difficulty sleeping look to aids as a way of staving off dementia later in life.

All cause mortality is absurdly higher if you use drugs to sleep, including OTC stuff[0]. So, probably not. Almost certainly same story with other "meds" that dipshits pop like popcorn[1]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4883191/ [1] https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/widely-used-class-drugs-l...

Both studies say they couldn't find a cause/effect relationship, though the correlation is somewhat eye opening.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#92

Post by mbesto » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #56

mbesto wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, take some of the science positions in the book with a grain of salt. The author is notorious for being directionally correct in his opinions, I've read it and I agree. Although he does admit in the beginning that there basically is not much conclusive facts about sleep, hence his motivation for writing the book. It's implied that what he is saying is fact, and its a lot more correlation than I think panace…

> the JRE podcast is actually pretty good at summarizing whats in the book Anyone who expects to learn something from a Joe Rogan podcast should understand that it is for the most part, a podcast where people go to have their ideas go unchallenged: https://www.vice.com/en/article/9kv9qd/the-joe-rogan-experie...

So let me get this straight. The entire basis for "we should understand that ideas go unchallenged" is because a Vice article told you that? An article that doesn't do anything other than cite a few instances where JR lets interviewees go unchallenged? Honestly, that article is terrible. I would expect something more conclusive to say something like "we fact checked 100 of JRE's guests and found 47 of them to be factually incorrect in what they were saying"

I mean I generally agree that he doesn't necessarily challenge his interviewees but to say you don't learn something from JRE is kind of off IMO.

Anyway, that's besides the point because I've both read the book and watched the podcast. Additionally I've checked some of the sources and they're consistent with what the author has communicated. In a world of sound bites, I'm simply offering that this soundbite is better than single sentence headliners but not as good as reading a whole book or even further, reading a book and every source.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#93

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

ljf wrote: post #86

agumonkey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say artificial light might have had the same effect internet has on us. Prior to it, we had to follow nature's cycle, then we made our own schedule. Internet allows to choose ad infinitum .. we're unregulated by the slow capped technologies of the past, the burden is on us to stop.

I spent a summer in Thailand on a small island living in a remote shack with no power. I was totally beholden to the natural light other than an oil lamp and I tiny pen torch I had. I had the best sleep I've ever had, but I'd wake super early with the sun rise and actually feel like getting up and doing stuff.

I have zero doubts about everything you said.

Anecdotally, the last time electricity went down in the whole neighborhood we were forced to use candles and it was .. magical. Stupidly magical.. the light warmth, the decay, the flicker.. my mind went into creative mode right away. It's the opposite of distraction we can get 24/7 these days.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#94

Post by mbesto » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

James_Henry wrote: post #46

mbesto wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and end up sleeping like 10 hours that night Paraphrased from the book - basically once you get passed the number of REM cycles needed all of the sleep after that is worthless and ends up just making you groggy. In other words the idea of "catching up on sleep" is BS.

Does the book give sources for this? And do those sources actually support this claim? It doesn't sound completely correct.

For this specific notion - I can't remember honestly. But most of the book is backed up by sources / studies.

As I noted in this thread - I don't think 100% of what author communicates in the book is factual or conclusive, but he does a great job of collecting multiple perspectives and studies to combine it into one thought provoking read. Like any book that has an agenda/angle, a healthy dose of skepticism is always required.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#95

Post by t-writescode » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

rtx wrote: post #64

solids wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not listening to our body requests. If you are tired, you should you sleep, and then avoid alarms to wake up.

I have found discipline to be better.

It’s as if the millions of people with insomnia all cried out all at once and condemned this post.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#96

Post by airstrike » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #68

wpietri wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the same will be true about artificial light. Our sleep cycles changed dramatically with the introduction of electric light. A few years back I built an automated lighting system [1] for my apartment that was basically a scaled-up version of a light-based alarm clock [2]. I got the expected benefit, getting up more easily in the morning. But it turned out the bigger benefit was going to sleep at a more regu…

I think Hue bulbs can do that out of the box.

Indeed, and after setting up the auto wake up / sleep cycle, I had to turn it off because it was leading me to want to fall asleep at night when I still had a ton of work to get through

As great as it would be to keep a more natural "lighting" cycle around the house, the truth is my modern obligations won't allow for that, so I have the lights on at full blast until midnight quite frequently

I look forward to my retirement but I wonder what brain and body damage I will have accrued until then

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#97

Post by zamfi » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

sradman wrote: post #32

From the paper Chi3l1/YKL-40 is controlled by the astrocyte circadian clock and regulates neuroinflammation and Alzheimer’s disease pathogenesis [1]: > Regulation of glial activation and neuroinflammation are critical factors in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer’s disease (AD). YKL-40, a primarily astrocytic protein encoded by the gene Chi3l1, is a widely studied cerebrospinal fluid biomarker that increases with aging an…

> We further observed that expression of Chi3l1 is regulated by the circadian clock, as deletion of the core clock proteins BMAL1 or CLOCK/NPAS2 strongly suppresses basal Chi3l1 expression, whereas deletion of the negative clock regulators PER1/PER2 increased Chi3l1 expression. Basal Chi3l1 mRNA was nonrhythmic because of a long mRNA half-life in astrocytes. However, inflammatory induction of Chi3l1 was gated by the clock

I'm struck by how much this description sounds like someone debugging or reverse-engineering some unknown microcontroller.

Do you (or anyone) know: has molecular bio always been like this? Or are there new tools that allow for selective inhibition of signals to observe effects?

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#98

Post by depressedpanda » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #56

mbesto wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, take some of the science positions in the book with a grain of salt. The author is notorious for being directionally correct in his opinions, I've read it and I agree. Although he does admit in the beginning that there basically is not much conclusive facts about sleep, hence his motivation for writing the book. It's implied that what he is saying is fact, and its a lot more correlation than I think panace…

> the JRE podcast is actually pretty good at summarizing whats in the book Anyone who expects to learn something from a Joe Rogan podcast should understand that it is for the most part, a podcast where people go to have their ideas go unchallenged: https://www.vice.com/en/article/9kv9qd/the-joe-rogan-experie...

I hope the irony here -- citing a Vice article when complaining about ideas going unchallenged -- is not lost on anyone.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#99

Post by slothtrop » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

devdas wrote: post #90

trophycase wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this too then I lived in a room without shades for months. Amazing how I started to wake up earlier and earlier and get tired earlier and earlier.

People with the night owl genetics wouldn't care about sunlight.

They do. Light still has a massive regulatory effect on the circadian rhythm, whether it's shifted slightly forward or back. Before the advent of the industrial revolution and electricity in homes no one was staying up all night unless they had to work through it.

Take a night owl and move them several time zones away, they'll end up shifting forward again in a week's time.

Re: Biomarker of Alzheimer's found to be regulated by sleep cycles

#100

Post by nescioquid » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

t-writescode wrote: post #95

rtx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found discipline to be better.

It’s as if the millions of people with insomnia all cried out all at once and condemned this post.

People who seek treatment for insomnia are often told to institute some form of sleep hygiene. My immediate thought was the comment was made by someone who found the advice worked for him/her.