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Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

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Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#41

Post by rvkennedy »

mseebach wrote: post #26
rvkennedy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple, when you privatize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because of "efficiencies". The way this works is you can always get a private company to pitch a service for a lower price than you're currently paying. Then it's up to them to squeeze a profit from that service by providing a lousy service. This is called "the power of the market". But because the service is lousy, and the public doesn't l…

It's very simple, when you nationalize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because it doesn't have to pay out "profits" to "shareholder". The way this works is that you can always get a politicians to promise whatever to whomever, as long as it will get him reelected. Then it's up the the public company to constantly pursue quick successes (usually in the form of various prestige projects which includes hiring h…

While we have the OP as a fine example of my point, it might help to provide an example of your own. In developed economies, nationalization has historically occurred when a business that the public relies upon has become literally or effectively bankrupt. Can you think of an example of an inefficient nationalized industry in the UK, the EU, or the USA? And in what way has nationalization contributed to that inefficiency?

In many cases the services that have recently been privatized were never nationalized to begin with - they were public services, like garbage collection or public transport, that have no obvious market competition model to follow.

Your definition of "rent-seeking" is also incorrect. Rent-seeking behaviour is when an economic agent attempts to manipulate public policy for private gain. A government body cannot engage in this behaviour by definition, as it does not take a profit, and is not private. It can fight its corner though - seeking more funding - but then it must spend that money on things like schoolbooks or hospital beds. This is considered a horrifying waste of resources to the private sector, which knows that those funds could better be spent on yachts and hookers.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#42

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bruceboughton wrote: post #14
nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

Except most train delays in the UK are conveniently below the 30 minute requirement for a refund. Often by just a few minutes...

I don't think they'll actually be massaging the data, 30 minutes was probably chosen to avoid paying for those delays.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#43

Post by pbhjpbhj »

drdaeman wrote: post #27

Just a thought. 1. Is data copyrightable, patentable or a trade secret? If not, follow the next steps. 2. Contact as much open-minded licensees as possible and persuade them to leak the data. 3. Build a service to collect the leaked data, collide several samples from varying origins to remove any "watermarks" (and constantly monitor for them), and publish it. 4. If the condition (1) stands true, the leak service shou…

>1. Is data copyrightable, patentable or a trade secret? If not, follow the next steps.

It could be copyright and trade secret however the important IPR to consider here is database rights.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-otherprotect/c-databaseri... http://www.out-law.com/page-5698

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#44

Post by tudorachim »

IHateATOC wrote: post #34
singular wrote: post #22

This is unbelievable. Do you think, if I decided to catch coaches/buses everywhere, I could get back some of the money they get from me? The fact that a publicly-funded organisation refuse to allow access to data because they have been criticised is absolutely scandalous. They get our money for free then dare to get shirty about the people who are funding them ?!! The railway service in the UK is appallingly bad, the…

I'm sitting on a lot of data that could do a lot of damage to ATOC. Time to stop sitting on it?

What kind of data?

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#45

Post by mseebach »

rvkennedy wrote: post #41
mseebach wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple, when you nationalize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because it doesn't have to pay out "profits" to "shareholder". The way this works is that you can always get a politicians to promise whatever to whomever, as long as it will get him reelected. Then it's up the the public company to constantly pursue quick successes (usually in the form of various prestige projects which includes hiring h…

While we have the OP as a fine example of my point, it might help to provide an example of your own. In developed economies, nationalization has historically occurred when a business that the public relies upon has become literally or effectively bankrupt. Can you think of an example of an inefficient nationalized industry in the UK, the EU, or the USA? And in what way has nationalization contributed to that ineffici…

I wrote a snarky reply to illustrate that your broad and generalizing assertion didn't really hold up.

My use of "rent seeking" is fine, there is other gain to extract than pure monetary profit. One is personal prestige: Being the boss of a big department with a big budget is nice (and well paid, even in the public sector).

An example of a public company, a railway one even, squandering billions on useless prestige projects: Danish State Railways procuring a small run of entirely custom made intercity trains instead of getting something off the shelf. It's a 5 billion DKK project, close to a decade late now. Also, changing governments failed to maintain the signals, so they're utterly rotten, causing delays daily.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#46

Post by themanr »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #42
bruceboughton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except most train delays in the UK are conveniently below the 30 minute requirement for a refund. Often by just a few minutes...

I don't think they'll actually be massaging the data, 30 minutes was probably chosen to avoid paying for those delays.

They might be massaging the trains - given a choice between making five trains 28 minutes late or making one train 35 minutes late there is an incentive to choose the former.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#47

Post by antihero »

halo wrote: post #2

There are two further elements of this discussion that the article misses. One is the fundamental approach to maximising value from government-created works. Traditionally, the Crown owns the copyright and then sells them to maximise revenue. The US approach is to make it public domain. The second issue is that the bar for a creative work covered by copyright is much lower in the UK than in the US. The notorious case…

Why should we pay double? That's like buying a chocolate bar then having to buy each square again individually.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#48

Post by antihero »

mseebach wrote: post #28
deadbadger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maximise the value for whom? The data is being monopolistically exploited by a private entity, for private profit. Where is the value for the taxpayer there? I think most people would agree that taxpayer value for public expenditure should be maximised, and were the money from the licences going directly into the public coffers then we could certainly have a discussion about whether taxpayer value is maximised by sel…

The government pays the train operating companies to operate trains, not to feed data to iPhone apps, just as they're not paid to sell crisps and sodas from a small cart. This creates value (otherwise there would be no profit to extract), so why not?

Buy why should we have to pay to license data about our own trains that we pay for?

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#49

Post by antihero »

arethuza wrote: post #19
rvkennedy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple, when you privatize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because of "efficiencies". The way this works is you can always get a private company to pitch a service for a lower price than you're currently paying. Then it's up to them to squeeze a profit from that service by providing a lousy service. This is called "the power of the market". But because the service is lousy, and the public doesn't l…

Like for like, people in the public sector in the UK often get paid quite a bit more than people in the private sector: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13329634

Policy Exchange are a Tory think tank and are generally seen to be full of shite. Of course they're going to be trying to create a wedge between private and public sector workers. The reality is that everyone is being screwed by the people at the top, and they know that if they divide us up and get the private sector to hate the unions, and think that they're getting a better deal somehow, the anger about cuts and rising food prices and whatnot is going to be directed onto other people at the bottom, instead of the true tyrants here. Read what the TUC says in the rest of the article.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#50

Post by alimbada »

batterseapower wrote: post #39
singular wrote: post #22

This is unbelievable. Do you think, if I decided to catch coaches/buses everywhere, I could get back some of the money they get from me? The fact that a publicly-funded organisation refuse to allow access to data because they have been criticised is absolutely scandalous. They get our money for free then dare to get shirty about the people who are funding them ?!! The railway service in the UK is appallingly bad, the…

It's hardly unusual for entities that receive government money to also charge for products/services produced using that money. Three examples I can think of just off the top of my head include 1) the health service in places like France where there are subsidised usage fees, 2) farmers in the EU who get large subsidies from the CAP or the equivalent in the USA, 3) application fees in patent offices. It is definitely…

"It is definitely super annoying that this data is not free, but the reality is that it does cost a bit of money to gather and aggregate."

Gathering and aggregating I'm not sure about, but I think the bigger cost is probably the frequency and number of connections to the feeds, which doesn't need to be as costly as it is. Fourth paragraph is most relevant: http://www.lyonanderson.com/post/2670466085/youre-asking-for...

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