Why (UK) train departure information is not open data. • Hacker News Board

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#21

Post by gorm » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:20 PM UTC

There has been a similar debate in Norway. According to law the public should have free access to databases that is founded in companies that are own by the public.

Companies with a monopoly or companies that have a political purpose and is founded by the public would also be covered by the law of free access to databases.

The company responsible for departure information in Oslo was very early with open APIs and giving access to developers. Only clausal was that you couldn't use it for commercial work. A couple of months ago they also removed this clausal so now it's free, even for commercial usage. More info here: http://bit.ly/iq1pbT (google translate)

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#22

Post by singular » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:21 PM UTC

This is unbelievable. Do you think, if I decided to catch coaches/buses everywhere, I could get back some of the money they get from me?

The fact that a publicly-funded organisation refuse to allow access to data because they have been criticised is absolutely scandalous. They get our money for free then dare to get shirty about the people who are funding them?!!

The railway service in the UK is appallingly bad, the majority of the rest of Europe appear to have worked out how to actually make trains work, and yet they have the cheek to do this. Unbelievable.

I'd like to write an app that tracks lateness round the UK and name + shame operators who are doing poorly. I strongly suspect official results are somewhat skewed by averaging/etc., and by focusing on hotspots/representing the data differently you could get a more accurate picture. Doing so would be critical of the rail operators - would they refuse me a license? Would I have to pay for the privilege of determining how effectively my (+ the rest of the people of the UK's) money was being spent?

It's like handing over £50 to somebody and them charging you for the privilege.

£5bn a year and we still have to pay for tickets - must be nice to be in a business where you get money for free THEN GET TO CHARGE FOR YOUR SERVICE ON TOP OF IT.

Sorry, angry, but legitimately so I think.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#23

Post by ma2rten » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:23 PM UTC

wallflower wrote: post #15

If you are interested in transit-related information access, consider signing up for the very low-traffic but occasionally interesting Transit Developers group. http://groups.google.com/group/transit-developers

Thanks! I have been interested in transit information for quite some time. This look very interesting.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#24

Post by samengland » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:31 PM UTC

bruceboughton wrote: post #14

nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

Except most train delays in the UK are conveniently below the 30 minute requirement for a refund. Often by just a few minutes...

This is very true, most people fail to notice this.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#25

Post by deadbadger » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:32 PM UTC

halo wrote: post #8

Joakal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have misunderstood the source of train information. It's a private company that's publicly funded. The Crown does appear to own the copyright.

My point is that the article sidesteps a fundamental question about copyright of government works. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to use the data commercially to maximise revenue then you won't see a problem with the current situation. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to provide the data for free to end users then you'll think it's wrong. The article implies the latte…

Maximise the value for whom? The data is being monopolistically exploited by a private entity, for private profit. Where is the value for the taxpayer there?

I think most people would agree that taxpayer value for public expenditure should be maximised, and were the money from the licences going directly into the public coffers then we could certainly have a discussion about whether taxpayer value is maximised by selling the data or giving it away for free.

That, however, is not what is happening here. As so frequently happens in the UK, the data is publically funded, and the profits are privately realised.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#26

Post by mseebach » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:37 PM UTC

rvkennedy wrote: post #17

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #7

I'd have thought the answer is quangos. But then I still don't understand why we, taxpayers, pay money to companies that pay out profits. Loans, fine, but why are we paying money that just leaks out in to shareholders bank accounts instead of being spent on transport and its infrastructure.

It's very simple, when you privatize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because of "efficiencies". The way this works is you can always get a private company to pitch a service for a lower price than you're currently paying. Then it's up to them to squeeze a profit from that service by providing a lousy service. This is called "the power of the market". But because the service is lousy, and the public doesn't l…

It's very simple, when you nationalize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because it doesn't have to pay out "profits" to "shareholder". The way this works is that you can always get a politicians to promise whatever to whomever, as long as it will get him reelected. Then it's up the the public company to constantly pursue quick successes (usually in the form of various prestige projects which includes hiring huge swaths of overpaid and unfireable employees) while neglecting long term planning and maintenance. When called out on it, they demand a larger operating budget, which if allocated, goes mostly towards making the allocating politician look good, and which if not, results in cuts to front line services to make the responsible politician look bad. This is called "rent seeking". Because the service is lousy, and the public, while not liking that, also isn't going to deliver the required landslide in an election, nothing happens. This is known as "the reason large public companies too often become bloated ungovernable unreformable monsters".

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#27

Post by drdaeman » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:49 PM UTC

Just a thought.

1. Is data copyrightable, patentable or a trade secret? If not, follow the next steps.

2. Contact as much open-minded licensees as possible and persuade them to leak the data.

3. Build a service to collect the leaked data, collide several samples from varying origins to remove any "watermarks" (and constantly monitor for them), and publish it.

4. If the condition (1) stands true, the leak service should be legal (IMNAL), and service provider can't be obliged to say who's leaking the data.

5. ...

6. PROFIT^W PROTEST!

Childish, and somehow risky (the (2) is tricky), but given enough power, the information could be made public.

If the departure times are copyrightable — there's something really wrong with copyright system.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#28

Post by mseebach » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:53 PM UTC

deadbadger wrote: post #25

halo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the article sidesteps a fundamental question about copyright of government works. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to use the data commercially to maximise revenue then you won't see a problem with the current situation. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to provide the data for free to end users then you'll think it's wrong. The article implies the latte…

Maximise the value for whom? The data is being monopolistically exploited by a private entity, for private profit. Where is the value for the taxpayer there? I think most people would agree that taxpayer value for public expenditure should be maximised, and were the money from the licences going directly into the public coffers then we could certainly have a discussion about whether taxpayer value is maximised by sel…

The government pays the train operating companies to operate trains, not to feed data to iPhone apps, just as they're not paid to sell crisps and sodas from a small cart. This creates value (otherwise there would be no profit to extract), so why not?

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#29

Post by nodata » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:55 PM UTC

bruceboughton wrote: post #14

nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

Except most train delays in the UK are conveniently below the 30 minute requirement for a refund. Often by just a few minutes...

If the data was open anyone could check for anomalies.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#30

Post by AlexMuir » Fri, May 13, 2011, 2:06 PM UTC

drdaeman wrote: post #27

Just a thought. 1. Is data copyrightable, patentable or a trade secret? If not, follow the next steps. 2. Contact as much open-minded licensees as possible and persuade them to leak the data. 3. Build a service to collect the leaked data, collide several samples from varying origins to remove any "watermarks" (and constantly monitor for them), and publish it. 4. If the condition (1) stands true, the leak service shou…

No licensee is going to leak this data. If they're paying, they aren't going to expend any effort to push it back out to potential competitors for free. And yes, non-commercial is a potential competitor.