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Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

write.privacytools.io

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Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#141

Post by missedthecue »

mtgx wrote: post #74
CaptArmchair wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to go into a different direction: "Sure, you don't have anything to hide today. But what about tomorrow? Or next year?" Did you know that law enforcement and justice can request and will try to gain access to data you share with any company? "Oh, but I have done nothing wrong." The definition of "nothing wrong" isn't set in stone. It's always up for interpretation. You might feel you're doing nothing wrong, bu…

That SHOULD be a powerful argument, too. Unfortunately, most people tend to roll their eyes when you start suggesting that the government might use such powers against them in the future. They ultimately just "trust the government" to do the "right thing" no matter how flawed that thinking is. This is partially the fault of the education system and them not "knowing their history" that well. It's only when such abuse…

My personal philosophy is that no matter what mobile OS or search engine or email server or VPN subscription or whatever I use, if the federal government really wants to know something about me or my behavior, they will be able to find out.

Therefore, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to make all sorts of trade-offs in the name of privacy. There's not much to gain.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#142

Post by MaxBarraclough »

freddyym wrote: post #101
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That page links to [0] which is a broken link, is it no longer available? [0] https://write.privacytools.io/privacy-simplified/why-privacy...

Ahh, yes that link is broken. Here is an archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20191224125253/https://write.pri...

There are some good points made there, but I found some of the points to be weak. Some hopefully constructive criticism:

> Why would you not care about one of your human rights?

That's essentially an appeal to authority or appeal to the majority argument. You haven't shown why I should care about privacy, you've only stated that the current consensus is that privacy counts as what we call a human right.

> it's not that I have nothing to hide, I simply don't have anything I would like to share, especially unknowingly.

Not really. I have plenty to hide, but that doesn't mean I've done anything wrong. I wouldn't agree to a camera in the bathroom, despite that I don't use the room to commit crimes. It's not that I merely don't care to have a camera, I would consider it a violation for there to be one.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#143

Post by Tokelin »

vntok wrote: post #71
Tokelin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.

> "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" If we're entering a valid contract under the justice system of our country of residency, why not? Similar services already abound, in particular around people who contract to visit and attend to older citizens.

This is a valid argument, which leads me to the thought that the laws need to be updated. I personally wouldn't be okay with my own premise. I have a person coming over to clean, but I am always home and I can check if I am worried about something.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#144

Post by Tokelin »

scatters wrote: post #72
Tokelin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.

Given that plenty of people give their home address and keys to a cleaner (domestic maid service), I really don't think that argument is going to get you anywhere.

I also have a cleaner coming to clean, but I am always home. I would say no to my own question, if other people would say yes, then we can discuss how it's "different" with tech giants.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#145

Post by vntok »

Tokelin wrote: post #143
vntok wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" If we're entering a valid contract under the justice system of our country of residency, why not? Similar services already abound, in particular around people who contract to visit and attend to older citizens.

This is a valid argument, which leads me to the thought that the laws need to be updated. I personally wouldn't be okay with my own premise. I have a person coming over to clean, but I am always home and I can check if I am worried about something.

If that's not too intrusive a question, I would be curious to know about your fears regarding such situation? Many people would consider this a benign thing - after all residential cleaning services is a multi-dozen billion market worldwide, growing at 5+% YoY, and a non-trivial part of that necessarily involves letting cleaners clean without owners' supervision.

Then again I'm asking as a European citizen living in a country with a comprehensive legal system, a functioning police force, cheap insurance policies, so on so forth. Certainly that ecosystem plays a role in our inner fears.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#146

Post by mackrevinack »

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

I don't really think that argument holds any water though

people are ok with giving away some of their privacy because they believe that companies and governments are trustworthy and that they will not abuse it.

asking them to give you their password isn't the same thing. you are not an "official" person that is bound by any company rules or laws and you could easily spend the rest of the day/week/month going through their emails wreaking havoc if you really wanted to. if a government official or police officer had access to their credit card number there is much less of a chance of them abusing it compared to someone they know or some stranger in the street.

even people that are aware of their data being collected probably know that there isnt someone in a van or an office cubical reading through every email they send/receive. its all just bulk collection and someone only looks at it if you get flagged for some reason.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#147

Post by mackrevinack »

raspyberr wrote: post #45
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return. When people use Facebook/Google etc. they get a service that they end up valuing very highly in return. That common argument of "Give me your phone and PIN" is so pointless because people wouldn't even give that stuff to Facebook if it didn't give them anyth…

yea its a shame its used so much. i even seen it being used by someone on TED talk :/

im not going to get into any of the better arguments right now but one thing i like to ask when people say they have nothing to hide is "what kind of things are people looking for?"

I think its good to get a handle on what the person knows first before you start throwing out counter arguments. in a lot of cases people don't even know whether they have something to hide or not and are just repeating what they have heard others saying

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#148

Post by forrestconnors »

dTal wrote: post #138
oskrim wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Social Cooling site is nonsense. If you don't like the idea of someone maintaining a "digital reputation" based on your activity on platform X, don't use platform X. It's that simple. Also: "We should compare this problem to Global Warming." Similarities? Social cooling is subtle and complex, just like global warming! Such insight.

What happens when platform X is "the internet"? Should I just not use that?

yep

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#149

Post by MaxBarraclough »

missedthecue wrote: post #141
mtgx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That SHOULD be a powerful argument, too. Unfortunately, most people tend to roll their eyes when you start suggesting that the government might use such powers against them in the future. They ultimately just "trust the government" to do the "right thing" no matter how flawed that thinking is. This is partially the fault of the education system and them not "knowing their history" that well. It's only when such abuse…

My personal philosophy is that no matter what mobile OS or search engine or email server or VPN subscription or whatever I use, if the federal government really wants to know something about me or my behavior, they will be able to find out. Therefore, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to make all sorts of trade-offs in the name of privacy. There's not much to gain.

> if the federal government really wants to know something about me or my behavior, they will be able to find out

If you've been specifically targeted by a state actor, you're going to have a much harder time than if your goal is to resist general dragnet surveillance.

> There's not much to gain.

This ignores whether you've been specifically targeted.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#150

Post by inanutshellus »

oskrim wrote: post #137
inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

This Social Cooling site is nonsense. If you don't like the idea of someone maintaining a "digital reputation" based on your activity on platform X, don't use platform X. It's that simple. Also: "We should compare this problem to Global Warming." Similarities? Social cooling is subtle and complex, just like global warming! Such insight.

Even without a facebook login, facebook still tracks your actions on (virtually) every site you go to, due to facebook API tagging in websites. "Like this page", "Add a comment via the facebook api", "log in w/ facebook", etc. all call home. Even just loading the facebook "Like" images calls home, is logged, and tracks you.
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