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Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

write.privacytools.io

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Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#61

Post by freddyym »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #54

A rather perfunctory post in my opinion, it doesn't offer much insight into how we should think about privacy. If you don't mind a heavy-going read, I recommend these papers by Solove: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [0], Conceptualizing Privacy [1], A Taxonomy of Privacy [2]. See also this HackerNews discussion on the nothing to hide argument from a few months back. [3] [0] https://…

Sorry if the post comes off as perfunctory, my last post on the topic had the opposite affect [1], so I tried to tone it down a little.

Also, as the author, I whole-heartedly recommend reading the aformentioned papers.

[1] https://lobste.rs/s/mrlfwh/why_privacy_matters_even_if_you_h...

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#62

Post by mmillin »

One of the most effective pieces of media I’ve seen in favor of privacy is Surveillance Camera Man [1]. While I don’t support what the guy behind the camera is doing, the videos he has evoke a stronger reaction than any logical argument I’ve heard against “having nothing to hide.”

[1]: https://youtu.be/mP5ZVPwP7bg

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#63

Post by brnt »

inanutshellus wrote: post #35
tolbish wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think it is a given that the general public feels powerless about privacy. Why would someone take steps to empower themselves if they see no need for such power?

Well, let's build something here. The current article argues in its opening that "nobody cares" ... The immediate retort to any "nobody cares" statement -- before one even finishes the sentence -- is "then it's probably for a good reason." It's counter-productive and frames your argument from the "weak outsider" perspective. So if we ought to frame our argument from a position of competence rather than insecurity (my…

If the subject comes up, I ask the question: "how to you think Facebook makes money?" I try to educate them on the business side of their social media: what does it look like when you start a Facebook ad-campaign? Select users by criteria, sometimes very complex and precise criteria. How do you feel about an advertiser selecting $subgroup-closely-resembling-partner-in-conversation?

I don't think I'm changing many minds, but I do try to offer a view most will never encounter themselves.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#64

Post by meowster »

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Instead of those questions, just ask them if they have blinds or curtains on their windows at home.

It's better to show that they already take steps to be private rather than asking privacy-invasive questions. One of those makes you the bad guy, the other shows that they actually do value privacy.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#66

Post by snarf21 »

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Exactly. Anyone who says they have nothing to hide, I ask them for their unlocked mobile.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#67

Post by MaxBarraclough »

freddyym wrote: post #61
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #54

A rather perfunctory post in my opinion, it doesn't offer much insight into how we should think about privacy. If you don't mind a heavy-going read, I recommend these papers by Solove: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [0], Conceptualizing Privacy [1], A Taxonomy of Privacy [2]. See also this HackerNews discussion on the nothing to hide argument from a few months back. [3] [0] https://…

Sorry if the post comes off as perfunctory, my last post on the topic had the opposite affect [1], so I tried to tone it down a little. Also, as the author, I whole-heartedly recommend reading the aformentioned papers. [1] https://lobste.rs/s/mrlfwh/why_privacy_matters_even_if_you_h...

That page links to [0] which is a broken link, is it no longer available?

[0] https://write.privacytools.io/privacy-simplified/why-privacy...

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#68

Post by vntok »

pacamara619 wrote: post #33
vntok wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people understand that there is a distinction between having nothing to hide from randos on the Internet asking about my life and having nothing to hide from the legal system of my country . Your line of questioning is not an argument for most people.

These randos on the internet are people. And who works in government and/or the justice system? You guessed it! People! The govermnent is not some sort of abstract infallible entity. It consists of regular people. And giving those people deep access to your private and personal life is going to be abused more than it will help. Have we already forgotten what disastrous consequences moving toward such a totalitarian g…

> These randos on the internet are people. And who works in government and/or the justice system? You guessed it! People!

That is not a persuasive argument to anyone who understands that people working for governments/justice systems are much more keen to be bound by... laws... than randos on the Internet.

> Giving those people deep access to your private and personal life is going to be abused more than it will help.

Yeah, I'll need a pretty convincing citation about that because it sounds like a load of misinformed nonsense to me. At the very least, you ought to segment your argument based on regional zones. As an example, in the EU governments do collect quite a lot of deep information on their citizens (their finance, their health, their skillsets, etc). They can then use that information to give out unemployment insurance, support education, tackle the best part of healthcare costs and so many other things that have a truly positive effect on people.

> Have we already forgotten what disastrous consequences moving toward such a totalitarian government has? Have we already forgotten about the horrors of the second world war and its aftermath?

Wait, is your argument that citizens in the US, EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, etc. will experience a shift of their government to totalitarian states in their lifetime? If so what are you basing this belief on?

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#69

Post by [deleted] »

inanutshellus wrote: post #35
tolbish wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think it is a given that the general public feels powerless about privacy. Why would someone take steps to empower themselves if they see no need for such power?

Well, let's build something here. The current article argues in its opening that "nobody cares" ... The immediate retort to any "nobody cares" statement -- before one even finishes the sentence -- is "then it's probably for a good reason." It's counter-productive and frames your argument from the "weak outsider" perspective. So if we ought to frame our argument from a position of competence rather than insecurity (my…

[deleted]

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#70

Post by CaptArmchair »

cortic wrote: post #56
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Posted this five months ago, but its still relevant: My nothing to hide argument; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some…

I tend to go into a different direction: "Sure, you don't have anything to hide today. But what about tomorrow? Or next year?"

Did you know that law enforcement and justice can request and will try to gain access to data you share with any company?

"Oh, but I have done nothing wrong."

The definition of "nothing wrong" isn't set in stone. It's always up for interpretation. You might feel you're doing nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean authorities will always see it that way.

Remember, in some countries, authorities use your social media to monitor against tax fraud. [1]

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2018/11/11/tax...

There's always that probability of a change of political or judicial direction towards more invasive measures in your personal life using the data you share with third parties. You can't predict with certainty that in 10 years time you won't be earmarked as a "subversive element" as a result of mass data mining of the same data you happily share on line. Never assume "it won't happen to me."

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