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FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

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Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#241
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly making a fool of himself.

You call it making a fool out of himself, I call it winning the Republican primary, getting 63 and later 74 million people to vote for him, winning one election, and coming within 100,000 votes of winning a second one, despite being a walking embodiment of anti-democracy. If it weren't for COVID-19, he might well have won. You shouldn't be laughing at him, and people like him. You should be scared of them.

>You shouldn't be laughing at him, and people like him. You should be scared of them.

I'm both laughing and terrified at the same time.

He's a would be dictator through and through and it stems from his pathological personality. He's straight up dangerous.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#243
post #206
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not collecting personal/demographic information Sure is! On my iCloud account, Apple has my address, my location, the location of all of my devices, my Apple Card is tied directly to purchases, and much more! Did you know iMessage specifically even used to be linked directly to Facebook's evil social graph? > it's not trying to increase user engagement (addictiveness) Citation? I would bet a large amount of mo…

iMessage is a pure messaging service - there are no recommendations, no feed, no following friends, no status updates, no likes, no profiles, no stories, and no connection to Facebook at all. Most importantly, no advertising since they actually make money off the products, which means no incentive for gaming engagement metrics. They want you to have a good time and sell you another device next year, not glue your eye…

Apple's great luck here is that everyone thinks of social media primarily in aesthetic ways that are linked to ideas of social media that they don't like.

> there are no recommendations, no feed, no following friends, no status updates, no likes, no profiles, no stories, and no connection to Facebook at all.

So because Apple doesn't have, in your view, some of the above, extremely limited, set of things they have no social networking properties in your view. It's revealing that "no connection to Facebook at all" is of such prime importance in the determination of Apple's products not being social media that it is specifically listed here. You're arguing what makes a product social so clearly based on a narrow set of specific features that you have ill-will toward but not on questions of the actual social nature of the products.

Under your asserted set of features which define social media, Messenger from Facebook only fails on being associated with Facebook and having stories! WhatsApp only fails due to Status and being associated with Facebook.

Apple used to have a product that was formerly known as "Find My Friends". It's wrapped into an app now called Find My, where you can follow the locations of your friends throughout the world. It integrates really nicely with other apps in Apple's portfolio like FaceTime and iMessage. One of its key features is to notify you when a friend of yours enters/leaves a location. It's about as close to "following friends" as it gets. Now for you, I imagine that your argument is that you are following physical locations of your friends with this app, not broadcast digital content so it's different and is therefore not social media. This seems like an extremely narrow view of social media that ignores the "social" aspect. Hard to understand how anyone would assert an app called "Find My Friends" isn't social!

> Most importantly, no advertising since they actually make money off the products, which means no incentive for gaming engagement metrics.

Why is it that engagement can only be useful for advertising? If Apple packaged a whole bunch of terrible apps that no one wanted to use (ie had low engagement) into its OS, do you think the demand would be so high for them? I don't. Neither do you, I think, as you make clear in the next sentence:

> They want you to have a good time and sell you another device next year, not glue your eyeballs to the screen.

What do you think represents having a good time in iMessage? For me, I would probably measure it by repeated usage under some metric like sends. The more someone uses iMessage to communicate with other people on iMessage, the more likely they are to not want to leave the Apple ecosystem. This is a real phenomenon. The shame of being a green bubble is very real in some circles. If the functionality of iMessage didn't vary between in-network and out-of-network messages, it would be completely fair to suggest that iMessage is a "pure messaging app" in the sense that GMail is just an email service. On GMail, my emails go across email services and work the same way in any scenario. In iMessage, if you're a pleb on Android, I can't do dozens of things with you that I can when communicating to my contacts on iMessage.

> Since there is no “Apple social network” to be spoken of, there would be little reason to include them.

This is just false beyond your aesthetic assertions of what social media is! Game Center explicitly has a "friends" concept as does Find My. iMessage doesn't call your contacts friends but if you have an iCloud account associated to a contact what's the difference beyond aesthetic conceptions? You have a closed network where you can socialize with others.

If your definition of social media is "has the features of Facebook Apps or is associated with Facebook" then I get why Apple doesn't have social media properties. If your definition of social media is "closed ecosystem services that enable you to interact socially with chosen individuals" then Apple clearly has social media properties.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#244
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no likes, no profiles, and no connection to Facebook at all You can absolutely thumbs up stuff. And accounts do have a profile -- a name, a phone number, a profile pic, email address, probably your apple ID somewhere in the metadata, etc. And this is not connected to Facebook, but to your Apple account. All your activity is sync'd between devices. > Since there is no “Apple social network” to be spoken of, there wo…

Would you say Fastmail is a social network?

Does Fastmail limit any of the social features of its product to communications with other Fastmail users or is Fastmail an interface to the generic, open email protocols?

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#245

Here is the actual order (PDF warning): https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/6b-orders... I would encourage everyone to read it. My personal take is that this is a ridiculous amount of homework to do in 45 days, and is essentially the FTC asking for not only these companies' "secret sauce" but also their confidential bookkeeping. I would be astounded if none of them challenged this order. For example, r…

I don't think it's more important to protect private profits than ensure people's right are respected when their data is being processed.

Moreover, I don't think the answers will be made public so what's the problem with being held accountable to a government authority? That's just normal in this case.

It's more than relevant to get to know a company business strategy when their business model is essentially based on user data.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#246

Here is the actual order (PDF warning): https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/6b-orders... I would encourage everyone to read it. My personal take is that this is a ridiculous amount of homework to do in 45 days, and is essentially the FTC asking for not only these companies' "secret sauce" but also their confidential bookkeeping. I would be astounded if none of them challenged this order. For example, r…

> It is not clear the FTC has this kind of authority to essentially demand "what are your trade secrets and future business plans?" They do seem to have the legal authority to make life very difficult for and potentially restrict entire actions of these companies. I imagine that if you refused to answer, and that your right to do so was likely to be upheld, that they'd just do what they were going to do before they a…

And just like the real world, never try to talk your way out of trouble. Never talk to police, remain silent, and get a lawyer. The police aren’t trying to throw you a bone, they are trying to get you to selfincriminate

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revealing all R&D is too much, but I don't think in general that it's too little time to answer. They would of course know the answers to questions like the one you cited. Otherwise, from the PDF: 1-6 mostly seem fine. Q7 is secret sauce Q8 doesn't really seem relevant to how personal data is used Q10 is at least a little bit secret sauce. Q11 I'm not sure what the relevance of this is Q12 and most of Q13 is secret s…

Who ever cares about the other questions? Q12 is insane - ALL business strategy (short and long term), research AND development, marketing AND sales, AND any plans to create OR cancel any existing products, as well as all presentations to any executives! That is insane! Why doesn't the FTC stop beating around the bush and just ask to be bribed, because there is no valid reason the FTC has to ask for any of that. It's…

Wow this makes so much sense, and should be the top comment. Especially when looking at it from the perspective of having an outgoing administration.

Sure the 45 days will be after inauguration, but usually the people are not booted on day 1.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Training itself can take 6 weeks+

Out of what experience you came to that conclusion may I ask? We are talking about experts here not newbies.

Where does google go to hire a massive team of legal experts in every google product, it’s strategy, and possible R&D.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revealing all R&D is too much, but I don't think in general that it's too little time to answer. They would of course know the answers to questions like the one you cited. Otherwise, from the PDF: 1-6 mostly seem fine. Q7 is secret sauce Q8 doesn't really seem relevant to how personal data is used Q10 is at least a little bit secret sauce. Q11 I'm not sure what the relevance of this is Q12 and most of Q13 is secret s…

Google is on the list, they have submitted to a similar agreement to be able to work in China. This reeks more like a see what you can get on the way out. 45 days from today is 1/28, one week after the inauguration. A decent time period where they will be a lot going on and confusion, that could allow underhanded tactics leeway to work.

As much as I want to find yet another reason to hate the Trump administration, this was done by the independent FTC, by a vote of 4-1, with 2 of 3 Republicans and both Democrats voting in favor it.

Re: FTC issues orders to nine social media and video streaming services

#250
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without a warrant 6(b) orders are essentially warrants under the FTC Act: "Section 6 of the FTC Act provides another investigative tool. Section 6(b) empowers the Commission to require an entity to file “annual or special . . . reports or answers in writing to specific questions” to provide information about the entity’s “organization, business, conduct, practices, management, and relation to other corporations, pa…

Key phrases being " broad sets of documents" from the comment you're responding to and "reports or answers in writing to specific questions" in the FTC's blurb.

"Specific" doesn't mean "narrow." "What were the ingredients from every meal you've had in your life?" or "What is the current address of every person with the first name 'John'?" is a specific question.

All it means (in English) is that it's clear which information should be included in the reply, not a limitation on the range of information that can be asked for.

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