Because (enough) people are buying them anyway?
Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
91–100 of 117 posts
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
They could be fixed using low-tech tools though. Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist. Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are…
"Easily fix" is relative though. It was never a majority of car owners that fixed their own cars. I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car - not then and not now. I'm just not mechanically inclined. For us, there's no difference - we need to take the car in to be serviced either way. The complexification of automobile engineering has disenfranchised a small minority of car ow…
Having a machine that can operate for 30 years with minimal or no maintenance is a type of reliability.
Having a machine that can operate for 200+ years with refurbishment is type of reliability.
There are pros and cons to each. The former is good so long as your country continues to grow, remains wealthy & educated, and retains the ability to constantly produce better replacements. Not every country has that luxury.
The VW Type 2 (what Americans call the "VW Bus") remained in production for the Brazilian market until 2013. That's a poor country and cars are expensive, so the ability to have a vehicle last a lifetime is very important. The Type 2 is something that can be repaired by almost any machine shop with basic fabrication tools.
You'll see this a lot in developing countries. Where "new" automobiles would be recognized as a 1980s or 1990s model by those living in developed countries. Manufactures keep them going because the tooling is cheap and easy to keep going.
Those 80/90s cars are dead reliable too.
Once the spare parts for an American 2020 Honda Civic are exhausted, it's unlikely that new parts can be fabricated. That's fine, so long as there's a 2050 Honda Civic or similar to available replace it, and that such a vehicle can still be afforded.
> I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car
You might be surprised by how much work you can do on a 90s-era Japanese car with a 14mm wrench and a screwdriver.
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
They could be fixed using low-tech tools though. Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist. Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are…
There's "fixable in theory" and "fixable in practice". As a former gearhead, I'd argue that cars from the late 70s/early 80s are effectively unfixable - it was the era when emissions standards were ratcheting up, but controls were still mostly analog. Engine bays were a giant morass of rubber vacuum hoses that nobody sane wants to deal with anymore. Mid-70s and earlier cars tend to be simpler, but they would never pa…
In the US, older cars generally just need to pass the emissions regulations in effect when they were manufactured.
In practice, that means that most states which have any emissions inspections now just connect to the OBD2 port, check for ready and no faults, and pass the car, with cars that predate OBD2 being either visually inspected for obvious defects or not inspected at all for emissions.
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
That statement is also false. I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid. It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.
Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up. And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue? https://support.google.com/go…
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
That statement is also false. I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid. It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.
Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up. And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue? https://support.google.com/go…
[deleted]
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up. And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue? https://support.google.com/go…
Was a Ferrari: https://old.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/j914...
HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes they absolutely did, they just couldn't get them. Games still shipped buggy, you just had to get used to it, tough. I work with people who were in the games industry in late 90s and the idea that games shipped without bugs is just funny to them.
The question is, were those games shipped as buggy as today's games? Today's games are more buggy, in part because they're much more complex, and in part because software update allows to ship them unfinished.
Yes, of course modern games are more buggy, because like you said, they are more complex and yes, the assumption is that they can be patched later. But the "old games didn't get patches and they were fine!" Thing is really really not true.
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#98So, once upon a time, nothing emitted or depended on receiving EM waves. Then, we learned how to use electricity and started putting it into everything. Then, and only then, did we start developing government regulation to make sure that your new device for sale didn't broadcast EM waves that interfered with any other devices in the vicinity. We are getting to the point where we will need an Underwriter Labs-style in…
For appliances as they're currently developed (completely locked down, firmware infrastructure owned and operated by the manufacturer), this definitely seems like a good idea.
I do think there's a fine line to walk between these devices and "general purpose computer"-type devices though, and I'd worry about this at least a little bit given the trend that appliance-type devices seem to be taking over the world (especially if you include phones).
Separately, I do still want to see a UEFI-style secure boot architecture for appliances. An appliance can have a default mode where it only accepts firmware signed by the manufacturer. But then if a user wants to install their own key and load their own firmware (because the manufacturer has stopped supporting the device, has gone out of business, writes shitty firmware, or just to use hardware that they own in a different way), most devices should make this possible, and it would be interesting to think about what a legal requirement would look like here. A manufacturer could gate access via a configuration menu, or by cutting a trace/jumper or with a write protect screw like on Chromebooks. And you could have entire classes of devices where open access is explicitly not allowed, like medical devices.
But smart speakers? Manufacturers should not be allowed to cryptographically guarantee that they become trash after two years.
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#99I stopped reading at Try to recall a time back when the Internet didn't exist... Where things like cars and phones functioned on their own in a much more reliable manner. I grew up in the 80s and have owned several cars from that era. They were significantly less reliable than cars of today. Carburetors were still present (though being phased out) and there were always vacuum hoses that, when they leaked, caused your…
I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network. Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever…
I was able to use the Windows XP Telnet app to chat and send ZIP files to another person when the Internet was down during the 2011 revolution. Hell, it was even better because only party had to pay the call's cost!
POTS is amazing, and its sad to see it going away :(
Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
#100Customer onboarding experience is a big one. The internet is a reliable way to communicate with/setup a device. I wish there was a better way, as companies keep having to reinvent the wheel. (Creating ad-hoc wireless networks, weird strings to input, transmitting audio/images to your phone).
I'm pretty sure the onboarding experience contributes to poor reviews, so the goal is to make it as easy as possible.
I remember the days where all devices came with a CD/floppy with software you had to install. (I had a device once that had to port scan my home network to find what it needed to connect to.)