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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#161
post #69

What I can't understand is how people can visit North Korea and not feel disgusted by giving support for that regime. I believe North Korea is facing another famine this year. Given the conditions in North Korea and the apparent iron grip its regime has on power is it better not to provide food aid? I can't decide for myself if it's better, for the long term, to let the nation starve and not help the people out or to…

It's our way. We do business with China and visit them regularly, even though we know that much of what makes their manufacturing industry so competitive is the use of slave prison labor. It's weird how we decide what people deserve "liberation" and what people we just shrug our shoulders at and keep supporting, in one form or another, the government that is oppressing them.

Source for "slave prison labor" in China please.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care to judge where the line belongs, but if we were to draw the line to include just one country, it would be North Korea as far as my moral compass is concerned. If we drew the line so it included the US, then we would also be including Russia, China, Mexico, and the vast majority of world nations. So yes, lets not go ranking countries by evilness - but North Korea is so beyond that that your equivoc…

If we drew the line so it included the US, then we would also be including Russia, China, Mexico, and the vast majority of world nations. It's not nearly so simple. If we drew the line according to what portion of our population we imprison, then the USA would be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with North Korea, with the rest of the world nearly an order of magnitude lower. Consider https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/w…

>It's not nearly so simple. If we drew the line according to what portion of our population we imprison

Yes, it's not simple. A single metric will not draw a meaningful line.

Compared to the average person in North Korea (imprisoned or not) American prisoners are very well treated. They have balanced diets, and can read anything they please. Even if everyone in America was imprisoned, I think America would still come out as a more humane dictatorship than North Korea if half of what I've read about that country is true.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My money's on Scandinavia.

This is one started up last year in Norway: Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0…

How is that a good thing? They've basically made a prison city, I thought we don't do things like that anymore (i.e. Australia).

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#164

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

>The biggest problem in American prisons is the advocacy by law enforcement of inmate-on-inmate rape as a sanctioned form of punishment

Do you know if this is correlated with overcrowding of prisons (actual capacity vs. intended capacity)? You mentioned California prisons are some of the worst, to my knowledge they are also the most overcrowded?

What strikes me in a comparative analysis of the US penal system is not quality of treatment, but the perverse economic incentives promoting hoarding such a large percentage of the population in them. I would argue the biggest problem in the American penal system is public policy structuring unrehabilitated prisoners as assets:

1a. The standard contract for private prisons seems to be money per prisoner housed rather than money per prisoner rehabilitated.

1b. Each prisoner generates further revenue for the private prison as a labor source.

1c. Thus on a balance sheet, each additional unrehabilitated prisoner becomes an asset to be kept rather than a liability to be reduced.

2. Allowing drugs inside prisons becomes an efficiency gain, as prisoners failing drug tests results in assets being held longer.

3a. When prisoners are housed in prisons in rural districts, they count towards that districts population for purposes of calculating representation in state legislature. Even though prisoners cannot vote and are primarily from urban districts.

3b. Prisoners then also become an asset rather than liabilities for politicians in rural districts by giving them undue representative power. Politicians then are incentivized to increase this asset by supporting minimum sentencing laws.

Now there may be no direct agency or conscious intent to the above, but historically changing the underlying structure of economic incentives can have profound positive effects on individual behavior: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/09/09/129757852/pop-quiz... . I'd be interested to know if this perspective fits with your knowledge of the subject.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#165

Thank you for posting this. A key takeaway from the article is in the final paragraph: "if we allow it, we could live in a world that makes great strides forward, but that can never rid itself of the abhorrent authoritarian tool that is the concentration camp." We allow these horrors to occur. That's not a judgment on anyone; I'm definitely part of the problem because I'm not part of the solution (to borrow a cliche)…

We need to wait for large mineral or oil deposits to be found in North Korea, and then the US can implement democracy.

Actually the biggest problem is that the North Korea military is pretty well equipped. Any military solution would require evacuating large sections of South Korea.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#166
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's our way. We do business with China and visit them regularly, even though we know that much of what makes their manufacturing industry so competitive is the use of slave prison labor. It's weird how we decide what people deserve "liberation" and what people we just shrug our shoulders at and keep supporting, in one form or another, the government that is oppressing them.

Source for "slave prison labor" in China please.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co...

"Using their vast pools of free labour, China's prisons produce everything from green tea to coal, paperclips to footballs, medical gloves to high-grade optical equipment."

http://www.goiam.org/index.php/news/iam-news/2007-iam-news-a...

"Prison Labor is also being exploited in China, according to executive director of the Laogai Research Foundation Harry Wu, who said prison laborers make garments, electronic components, coffee mugs and toys that end up in U.S. stores. “The Chinese government continues to use forced labor to make goods, condones sweatshop conditions in its factories, and refuses to allow workers to create independent unions-- is it really any wonder that low-quality, harmful toys are being exported to the US and into the hands of our children?” said Wu, who spent 19 years in a Chinese prison.

Wal-Mart was singled out for their role in allowing the exploitation of cheap Chinese labor. “Wal-Mart bears a lion’s share of responsibility for pushing the toy industry into a region where product safety and worker safety inspection is virtually nonexistent,” said Bama Athreya, executive director of the International Labor Rights Forum."

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa45502.000/hf...

1998 FORCED LABOR IN CHINA - HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITEE ON INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#167
post #69

What I can't understand is how people can visit North Korea and not feel disgusted by giving support for that regime. I believe North Korea is facing another famine this year. Given the conditions in North Korea and the apparent iron grip its regime has on power is it better not to provide food aid? I can't decide for myself if it's better, for the long term, to let the nation starve and not help the people out or to…

It's our way. We do business with China and visit them regularly, even though we know that much of what makes their manufacturing industry so competitive is the use of slave prison labor. It's weird how we decide what people deserve "liberation" and what people we just shrug our shoulders at and keep supporting, in one form or another, the government that is oppressing them.

I don't know about the majority of manufacturing in mainland China.

I do know that the several thousand people my employer has in manufacturing there are not slave labor.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#168
About 2.3 million people are incarcerated in the United States. Recent figures say more than 12% are raped or endure sexual assault. Twelve-percent of 2.3m is 276,000 and 276k > 200k.

Not defending North Korea. But I'm a strong proponent of "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" mentality. Let's take a good hard look at ourselves before deeming others violent, ignorant, dictatorial, or cruel.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#169
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with your points (i.e. "who watches the Watchmen" and accumulative hatred) but I'm not happy to be so. Goethe said that "to be pleased with one's limits is a wretched state". Even if we're not pleased with the notion that no better solution exists (or can be found), still it makes one sad about humanity.

That is a totally valid feeling. Of course these are just extensions of our own personal hatreds and prejudices. The best way to change them is to change these feelings within yourself.

This I totally disagree with. Saying there's no evident solution for a problem is one thing, stating that the problem is actually "imagined" or just has something to do with our perception is a totally different thing.

I believe in cultural relativism only weakly, I firmly believe there are well-defined wrongs: female circumcision is wrong (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/opinion/12kristof.html?_r=...), putting your own citizens in concentration camps is wrong, etc. To say that these acts are unequivocally wrong has nothing to do with "our own personal hatreds and prejudices".

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#170
Atlantic article, "North Korea's Digital Underground,"

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2011/04/north-kore...

makes for very interesting reading about attempts to help the common people of North Korea know what is going on in their own country and in the outside world.

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