Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#71

Post by falcolas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #49

mcguire wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you missed the other half of that example? " Now consider current times when your thermostat becomes completely unresponsive in the middle of winter because a vital network goes down. Imagine you're not able to operate your car during a crisis because networks are down? " Something, something, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticiz…

That statement is also false. I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid. It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.

Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up.

And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue?

https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en

Doesn't seem like nonsense.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#72

Post by NickM » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #64

Lammy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sure sounded a lot better though.

Lower latency too. It's crazy how much of a difference low latency really makes.

Yes, this 100%. I miss being able to talk to people like they're in the same room, with no detectable latency, the way that local landline calls used to work.

I think most people don't realize why phone calls suck these days; it just feels awkward and cumbersome, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#73

Post by cardiffspaceman » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

ASalazarMX wrote: post #24

styfle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games that didn’t need software updates :)

They actually did, but the updated versions were for new sales only. OTOH, software update is being widely abused nowadays, there's no pressure to get it right off the bat. As long as the update framework is robust, everything else can be weak since you can send another patch whenever you want.

In the 90's game publishers started to make things available via BBS, FTP, AOL and CompuServe and others. And it was already taken advantage of in quality control. Also "mail me a floppy."

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#74

Post by oneplane » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

Without reading the article you can pretty much answer that question-headline with: because money.

Edit: I read the post and it's as guessed. (money)

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#75

Post by ASalazarMX » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #68

ASalazarMX wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Move Fast! Break things! - Sir, that was for software, not hardware.

SpaceX has entered the chat

At least they're breaking the things they paid for, not the ones I paid for.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#76

Post by ddingus » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

I see all this connectivity and the back end needed to make it work a lot like basic electricity.

Early on we had competing visions, best practices were being learned the hard way and regulation was in its infancy.

Later on, with a lot settled, electricity became utilitarian, but not a given still.

My camp trailer fridge works on 110v or propane. The table radio in it works on 110V, 12V or batteries inside the device.

I have (dangerous) gas lighting in that unit as well as electric.

Power isn't a given and the devices from the era are designed to operate under that state of things.

This all seems very early. We lack foresight because people are pioneering. Users of this tech are also pioneering. Someone is gonna do it. Let's hope they do it increasingly well and sooner.

One day, this will all be real infrastructure, with all the girls along with: regulation standards the usual.

Until then it's kind of a wild west.

Play hard, but play eyes wide open too. Or pass and watch as it all forms to be more robust just like people did with electricity.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#77

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #43

Semaphor wrote: post #6

Many or most aren’t. I have a bunch of home automation devices and I’m planning for more. Most of them don’t require any internet connectivity, the only one that does (I still have Alexa connected to Home Assistant, planning to replace her with Rhasspy but didn’t find the time yet) is purely an extra method of controlling things so nothing breaks without internet. I see people buying internet-required devices as the…

> I see people buying internet-required devices as the same people who buy the registry cleaners. They don’t know enough about computers themselves, and the advertorials/computer magazines don’t do them any favors. In some cases, you don't have a choice. As far as I know, all current Roomba models have their schedule programmed via an smartphone app. I don't have one, so I don't know if it exactly requires the intern…

Actually I don’t mind things being controlled by a smartphone over the Internet. That’s nice and convenient. What I object to is things being controlled by a company’s internet service, commanded by the user’s smartphone. One just requires my smartphone, the device and an internet connection, the other adds the company as an unnecessary middleman.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#78

Post by flyfishnjake » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

I have to agree with the OP on this one. I recently have been looking at some different home security hardware to add to my home. In particular, trying to find a video/intercom doorbell that I can hookup to my self-hosted Home Assistant server without it reaching out to the internet is a very difficult task.

Even if you know what you want, and you know it's possible, it's difficult or impossible sometimes (without building it yourself) to find hardware that doesn't rely on internet connectivity and some user account.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#79

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #61

CountSessine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.

Wait for a disaster to happen in your area - a time when you'll want your cellphone the most. At which point your cellphone will be... well, a good camera. And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).

Well, that relies on a couple of things. A disaster can take phone lines out as well as electricity. You might not have zero cell phone service if towers are working. Land lines would get clogged at times and simply fail you (I've had this happen).

You generally have some charge on your phone, though, and lots of folks have power banks now - or cars they can charge their phones with.

Don't forget all the times when disaster strikes and the cell phones are a real help: Car accidents, for example. At one time, you were reliant on you - or someone else - stopping by a house and hoping they'd be home. And I'm sure there are lots of other examples of this as well. Now that laws changed, cell phones can pretty much always call 911 as well, even without service at all: This was not the case with phone lines. If the house didn't have service, you couldn't get help.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#80

Post by falcolas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #70

falcolas wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait for a disaster to happen in your area - a time when you'll want your cellphone the most. At which point your cellphone will be... well, a good camera. And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).

I live in a disaster-prone (wildfire) area. I'll take cellphones over landlines every single time . 1) In the event of a major disaster, you've probably evacuated. You can't take your landline with you. 2) Telephone poles burn. 3) Even if the cellular system is completely hosed, you might still be able to get on a data network. All you need is crappy wifi anywhere (cafe, hotel, friend) and you can get an email out.

I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hate for reliable technologies like landlines. All I can guess is that they stole someone's lunch money. Or people feel the need to justify their cellphone purchases by coming up with specious arguments against the "competition".

1) Not all disasters can be evacuated away from. Tornadoes, for example.

2) So do power poles. And those telephone poles are also probably carrying data.

3) You can't dial 911 via email.

Cell network congestion is a well known phenomenon when disasters strike. It's been seen multiple times in the past. Yes, landlines can and do fail as well, but they're more resilient than cellphone networks.

Perhaps this will flip in the future, but it hasn't, not yet.