Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#61

Post by falcolas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

CountSessine wrote: post #36

goodside wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network. Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever…

I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.

Wait for a disaster to happen in your area - a time when you'll want your cellphone the most. At which point your cellphone will be... well, a good camera.

And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#62

Post by SllX » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

Lammy wrote: post #51

CountSessine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.

They sure sounded a lot better though.

Not with VoLTE and FaceTime Audio around now. Inter-carrier calls can still suck, but I now have noise canceling headphones which enables me to get a much more intelligent signal out of the mouth of the other caller than I could with just the call speaker held up to my ear.

There’s a lot that still sucks, but I don’t miss landlines the slightest bit. Scheduled do not disturb is a godsend next to trying to remember to turn the ringer on the landline in the hallway off at night.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#63

Post by vkou » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

bwanab wrote: post #2

Why are new devices dependent on the internet but made without a thought to the security of the user?

Because the demonstrable[1] security risks for most people of their vacuum cleaner or thermostat getting pwned are non-existent.

[1] I'm not talking about theoretical geek-fantasy concerns about how the Mossad, or some other sufficiently sinister and all-powerful organization[2], can stop your heart by varying the power setting on your internet-connected Roomba, or map out the internal layout of your apartment and fly a poison-dart-tipped AI-controlled drone into it. I'm talking about actual, demonstrable harm to the typical end user. People grousing on the internet about security have done an incredibly poor job of this.

[2] That for some reason is futzing around with thermostat zero-days, instead of just taping a bomb to the underside of your car, or scrubbing your teapot with polonium, or jabbing you with a poison-tipped umbrella.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#64

Post by falcolas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

Lammy wrote: post #51

CountSessine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.

They sure sounded a lot better though.

Lower latency too. It's crazy how much of a difference low latency really makes.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#65

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

abruzzi wrote: post #54

goodside wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network. Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever…

heck, POTS line phones can even function with a power loss since they derive their power from the phone line (unless you have a POTS line phone like a cordless where it has to charge a battery and operate a 900mhz connection to the handset.)

[deleted]

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#66

Post by Buttons840 » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

disport wrote: post #10

Another way to rephrase the question is: why don't networked devices require signoff from a professionally licensed engineer on its specific software implementation before it goes to market? You see "forethought" in devices offered to the public when regulation DEMANDS it: think cars, bridges, medical devices, because (or so it's been rationalized), the public needs accountability (a named, professionally licensed, b…

Software engineering licensure is an old debate. To say the least, I can easily imagine it making things worse, where let's say, all software has to be written in Java and get a rubber stamp by someone who hasn't actually built anything for years, and then still nobody gets held accountable when security breaches happen. Meanwhile, a bunch of college dropouts build something that's actually good using bulb, and then just have users sign away their rights in a contract instead of getting their software certified. And most of the world still runs on the Linux kernel which also had no interest in getting certified.

It's a hard problem.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#67

Post by pas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

disport wrote: post #10

Another way to rephrase the question is: why don't networked devices require signoff from a professionally licensed engineer on its specific software implementation before it goes to market? You see "forethought" in devices offered to the public when regulation DEMANDS it: think cars, bridges, medical devices, because (or so it's been rationalized), the public needs accountability (a named, professionally licensed, b…

Ah, yeah. Well. Finance and accounting is a very regulated space, yet there are auditors that don't sign off on stuff, and miraculously the same stuff gets signed by a different one a bit later.

Also - and I'm not saying requiring sign off is a bad idea - , but it's not a coincidence that secure walled gardens look like a manicured Black Mirror dystopia.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#68

Post by pas » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:46 PM UTC

ASalazarMX wrote: post #60

pas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially on the short term. It's much easier/cheaper to make something that's not even planned to last long. And people don't care about the long term. :(

- Move Fast! Break things! - Sir, that was for software, not hardware.

SpaceX has entered the chat

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#69

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #33

stickfigure wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false.

They could be fixed using low-tech tools though. Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist. Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are…

Yes! To me, reliability goes hand in hand with repairability. Id rather have something that breaks every 2 years that can be fixed with a wrench than something that breaks every 10 years and cannot be repaired without a $2000 trip to the dealership where they use a $20,000 diagnosis computer to troubleshoot.

Re: Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?

#70

Post by stickfigure » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #61

CountSessine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.

Wait for a disaster to happen in your area - a time when you'll want your cellphone the most. At which point your cellphone will be... well, a good camera. And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).

I live in a disaster-prone (wildfire) area. I'll take cellphones over landlines every single time.

1) In the event of a major disaster, you've probably evacuated. You can't take your landline with you.

2) Telephone poles burn.

3) Even if the cellular system is completely hosed, you might still be able to get on a data network. All you need is crappy wifi anywhere (cafe, hotel, friend) and you can get an email out.