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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#151

Post by ajkessler »

leot wrote: post #146
ajkessler wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting take. I think one of the most useful things to ask, in many situations, is "compared to what?" To those who say things like "we shouldn't point fingers, look how bad we are", I ask, "compared to what?" Compared to utopia, sure, America is a shithole. But compared to just about any other real place, on just about any other metric, we're doing pretty well. To argue that we somehow don't have the right…

Saying that we're better than most but not as great as we could be is a cop out. The implication of your comment appears to be "let's be upset about N.K., but you're holding the U.S. to too high a standard. The institutions of the U.S. are not nearly as deserving of public outrage as those of N.K." It's been my experience that most of the wealthy/privileged in the U.S. are simply unaware of how horrible things are[1]…

The implication is absolutely that the institutions of the U.S. are not nearly as deserving of public outrage as those of NK. I simply don't understand how you could come to any other conclusion. Death camps and executions for those who speak out against leaders are aren't worse than three strikes laws? Come on.

I thoroughly agree with the first sentence of your second point. I would go further to say that, since almost all of America is wealthy and privileged (compared to the rest of the world), and add in the fact that only ~22% of our citizens have passports, most of us have no fucking clue how horrible things are in much of the world. That's why I think exposing this kind of stuff, and shaming those responsible, is worthwhile.

The gains to be had in America are, relatively, minor compared to the gains that could be achieved for hundreds of millions around the world. Look at the recent events in the middle east. How much of the was precipitated by worldwide outrage over human rights issues for the last 30 years? I don't know, but I can't imagine they didn't bolster the protestors' resolve to some degree.

That's not to say we should ignore the problems here, and obviously people aren't. There's a thousand different versions of the Innocence Project run by people trying to right the perceived wrongs in all segments of American society. But there's enough outrage to spread around. To say we don't, as individuals, have the time or energy to focus a miniscule amount of attention on the worst off of those around the world is ridiculous.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#152

Post by daliusd »

nooneelse wrote: post #55
ck2 wrote: post #4

If they still made the sears catalog I'd suggest the key to starting a peoples' revolt in North Korea would be to airdrop hundreds of thousands of catalogs across the country. Even without understanding the language, just looking at all the goods would make people start wondering why they are being made to suffer so.

Sometimes I like to indulge a similar fantasy. Only in mine it would be an airdrop of hundreds of thousands of small, hand-crank powered, mesh and satellite enabled, fully encrypt-able communication devices. Upon start-up, the helpful cartoon would explain something like... "you don't have to use this to talk to the outside countries you have been taught to distrust (though we hope this gift helps you see us in a bet…

The funny thing - you would use mesh enabled device yourself. Actually if there were such cheap devices they would find their way to North Korea somehow. I remember reading article about North Koreans living on border and using mobile phones with Chinese operators' accounts.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#153

Post by zedshaw »

pragmatic wrote: post #137
zedshaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

What society/nation has the best prisons overall? Is there a country/region that does it "right"?

That depends entirely on whether you think prison is about "retribution" or about "rehabilitation". This is a very big debate in criminology, but I think rehabilitation is winning out.

Personally, I think that prisons need to be both retribution and rehabilitation at the same time, and base their mode of operation on the Military, but that's my personal opinion. Based on that I'd say the Japanese probably come the closest, with the actual Military being second. I say this not because I don't care about prisoners, but because I know first hand that the way bootcamp operates is a fast efficient way to retrain people who are unwilling to be trained. It also doesn't do this with violence (anymore) so it would be humane without being "soft".

If however you think prisons should be about rehabilitation then, I believe Denmark or Sweden have the best. They also have a highly homogeneous society with only one main race to deal with, so that's why that works for them. In other words, it's easier to retrain people to fit into society if everyone is already from that same society.

Other than that, they just suck everywhere.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#154

Post by bkj123 »

zedshaw wrote: post #131
jacoblyles wrote: post #97

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

Please suggest where I can find reliable facts and statistics regarding the conditions in US prisons including violence and rape. Thank you.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#155

Post by jhamburger »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #141
lukeschlather wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care to judge where the line belongs, but if we were to draw the line to include just one country, it would be North Korea as far as my moral compass is concerned. If we drew the line so it included the US, then we would also be including Russia, China, Mexico, and the vast majority of world nations. So yes, lets not go ranking countries by evilness - but North Korea is so beyond that that your equivoc…

If we drew the line so it included the US, then we would also be including Russia, China, Mexico, and the vast majority of world nations. It's not nearly so simple. If we drew the line according to what portion of our population we imprison, then the USA would be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with North Korea, with the rest of the world nearly an order of magnitude lower. Consider https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/w…

The problem is that a lot of those people belong in prison. I mean release the pot dealer serving 25-to-life, fine...but you'll still be left with a lot of 'real' criminals out there. And sure there are a lot of unique systemic failures in America that led to this situation, but they can't all be fixed by a few shifts in gov't policy.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#156

Post by zedshaw »

bkj123 wrote: post #154
zedshaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

Please suggest where I can find reliable facts and statistics regarding the conditions in US prisons including violence and rape. Thank you.

As mentioned in another comment, start here: http://justdetention.org/

Then start reading literature from Amnesty International: http://www.amnesty.org/

Despite what people think, AI isn't about any kind of "liberal agenda", they're just about wrongful imprisonment, torture, and basic human rights.

That'll get you started in statistics, and then you can start looking for the various Dept. of Correction websites in each state to see what initiatives they have, and you might even be able to get at their stats (although usually you have to ask or FOIA to get them).

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#157

Post by ksolanki »

amackera wrote: post #90
ck2 wrote: post #4

If they still made the sears catalog I'd suggest the key to starting a peoples' revolt in North Korea would be to airdrop hundreds of thousands of catalogs across the country. Even without understanding the language, just looking at all the goods would make people start wondering why they are being made to suffer so.

How about just dropping food?

How about just not interfering?

Edit: To all downvoters: Perhaps this statement is at a wrong place, but yes, these countries (in the Middle East or Africa) might be much better off if the developed countries and China would not be after their natural resources.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#158

Post by gyardley »

bkj123 wrote: post #154
zedshaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

Please suggest where I can find reliable facts and statistics regarding the conditions in US prisons including violence and rape. Thank you.

The Bureau of Justice collects statistics annually thanks to the Prison Rape Elimination Act. Here's a link to a relatively recent study based off of a survey of over 80,000 inmates:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2202

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#160

Post by zedshaw »

ajkessler wrote: post #151
leot wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that we're better than most but not as great as we could be is a cop out. The implication of your comment appears to be "let's be upset about N.K., but you're holding the U.S. to too high a standard. The institutions of the U.S. are not nearly as deserving of public outrage as those of N.K." It's been my experience that most of the wealthy/privileged in the U.S. are simply unaware of how horrible things are[1]…

The implication is absolutely that the institutions of the U.S. are not nearly as deserving of public outrage as those of NK. I simply don't understand how you could come to any other conclusion. Death camps and executions for those who speak out against leaders are aren't worse than three strikes laws? Come on. I thoroughly agree with the first sentence of your second point. I would go further to say that, since alm…

You're conflating the legal system with the penal system. It's a common mistake, but the "3-strikes laws" are part of the laws and how they're enforced, which is the legal system. The penal system is about carrying out sentences and imprisonment. In some case the penal system is actually an advocate for the prisoners against the legal system. For example, prisons force law enforcement to get warrants before they'll let them listen to prisoner phone calls if they haven't been convicted yet, or sometimes just in general.

That's not to say what you mention about the legal system isn't screwed up, it's just to fix the penal system you have to focus on things the penal system can change. They can't change the 3-strikes laws, but they can change early release programs, surveillance, oversight, IT budgets, conditions, training programs, guard training, etc.

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