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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#131

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means).

In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't survive their sentences. France's prisons are so historically bad that they've spawned whole revolutions numerous times, and are a common factor in their history. The EU was supposed to improve these conditions but it remains to be seen given they have very little data on how they're run, let alone anything publicly accessible.

In Asia only Japan has decent well run prisons, but their prisons are harsh while still having a high success rate. In the rest of Asia prisons are typically horrible, and even S.Korea has some awful conditions. Last thing I read said they don't feed prisoners and keep them in tiny huts, requiring their relatives to come and feed them. Burma is a massive police state with actual slaves by law.

In Africa, if you remove countries that just don't even have working governments, you find the prisons are also horrible, with the exception of maybe South Africa, but even they've had a history of nasty evil and torture (read about Steve Biko). It's improved a lot, but not nearly as much as it should.

The US is similar to Europe, with some of the worst and some of the best prisons in the world. Now, we're not talking about American legal policy on things like wrongful imprisonment by the LA Crash unit, idiotic "3-strikes your out" laws, or minimum sentencing laws. I'm talking the actual conditions of the prisons in the US as labeled by organizations like Amnesty International. In our case, prisons are generally alright, with a few standout offenses like Sheriff Joe Arpaio in AZ, and most prisons in the south and California. The worst state is definitely California, which makes sense given they've had more complete city wide riots than any other state in the nation and their huge gap between rich and poor.

But, a significant difference between our prison system and many others around the world (even those in Europe) are our laws about open records on how they're run and our recent trend of civilian oversight groups and recitivism prevention. Starting in about 2004 there's been a huge push to increase monitoring of prisons, offenses, guard abuses, and to help parolees stay out of jail. I personally worked on systems that tracked guard abuses at Riker's Island and the NYC DOC, as well as finger print systems for prisons that do early release programs and job release programs.

The biggest problem in American prisons is the advocacy by law enforcement of inmate-on-inmate rape as a sanctioned form of punishment. There's been numerous cases of countries refusing to extradite criminals based purely on our joke that a man will get ass raped in prison. If you wanted to focus your activism and hatred on any one thing to improve our system, it would definitely be eliminating rape.

In general, through my research and my own need to improve prisons, I found that prisons are horrible poorly managed hell holes everywhere. They generally reflect the cultural fear of the dominant members of a region against the "unclean" citizens, outsiders, and the low class. The difference between American prisons and this one in N.Korea is the size of it and the blatant attempt to keep it secret from the rest of the world. Very few countries in the world try to hide prisons, and when they do it's considered horrible, but none of them are hiding a prison that's the size of Manhattan:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=90km+square

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#133

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

I'm mostly interested in looking at the problems with the U.S.'s prison system before North Korea's because it is: 1) exceedingly bad; and 2) nearby enough that there is some chance we (=Americans) can do something about it. "North Korea is really bad" by contrast, I already believe, and we have a ton of evidence for it. Is evidence that North Korean prisons are also big and inhumane surprising? Yes, we should do som…

[deleted]

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#134

No way that camp could be holding 200,000 people. Anyone who has studied any geography could see that would be near impossible.

Ohio Stadium[1] comfortably holds over 100,000 people in the bleachers alone. In 2003 nearby Lane Ave, two blocks north of the stadium, was closed to traffic on game days due to construction on a new bridge. That street easily held a half million people on the half-mile stretch between High St. and the Olentangy River.

[1] http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38...

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#135

Well America, are you going to spread "Freedom and Democracy" there? It sure needs it.

Not until there is the political will to accept millions of US losses. Our current engagements are a walk in the park compared to what "bringing regime change" to North Korea entail. I'd wager that there hasn't been another large populace so thoroughly brainwashed in modern history- Nazi Germany isn't even comparable to "the hermit kingdom."

I think you're totally wrong, there's no idealogical support for the regime there. The military support him because he makes them 1st class citizens and they know it's the only way they can eat. The civilians are just scared to death and trying to survive.

And there wouldn't be millions of US losses, we would never put ourselves in that situation. It would be relentless airstrikes aiming at disabling air defenses/artillery positions and decapitation of the regime. The problem would be mass civilian casualties in south korea.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#136

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

Very interesting take. I think one of the most useful things to ask, in many situations, is "compared to what?" To those who say things like "we shouldn't point fingers, look how bad we are", I ask, "compared to what?"

Compared to utopia, sure, America is a shithole. But compared to just about any other real place, on just about any other metric, we're doing pretty well. To argue that we somehow don't have the right to call other nations or people out for their atrocities, because we don't compare well to utopia, is ridiculous. We have a duty to call other people out on their bullshit.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#137

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

What society/nation has the best prisons overall?

Is there a country/region that does it "right"?

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#138
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect most of what you post on HN - you have great insights and offer a lot of knowledgeable information to most of the threads you participate in - but I can't say this post was one of them. Wouldn't it be far more productive to skip threads that might not interest you? Otherwise you are, IMHO, adding a rant just like everyone you are criticizing.

HN Guidelines: > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon... If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. This is off-topic. There is essentially no chance that anything useful will shake out from the ensuing discussion. It's noise, and it crowds out the signal. I'm glad that tptacek's post is currently the #1 post.

The article actually speaks to the fact that you can use tech to view atrocities like these that are otherwise kept hidden. No one would have evidence of North Korean concentration camps --- not with only 2 survivors in some 60 years (according to the article, if I'm remembering right) --- without satellites and, in particular, Google Earth.

The conversation may have gone off-topic, but it didn't start that way.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

What society/nation has the best prisons overall? Is there a country/region that does it "right"?

My money's on Scandinavia.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watched the video they said it was all in 2 valleys. 200,000 in those two valleys? Impossible.

I estimate roughly around 500 small housing units from what I've seen. The smallest units are about 60*30feet in size. For a slave labor camp, it would be easy to fit 100 people in each unit with two story bunk beds. That's already 50,000 people. The units may be more crammed than I imagine, and I may have missed miscounted these housing units. 200K sounds like an upper limit but it's not impossible.

And it's generous for you to assume that they even get to sleep alone in 'beds'
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