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Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

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Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#91

Post by nineplay »

> The overwhelming majority of people do not care about privacy. They ask why they should care if they have “nothing to hide”

I have never heard anyone say this though it's a common internet strawman. Certainly there are people who don't care much about their browser cookies or the information they share on Facebook, but it doesn't mean they have 'nothing to hide'. They just disagree on what they need to keep private.

I can't say I worry about cookies at work where I'm only browsing tech sites.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#92

Post by Rooster61 »

matz1 wrote: post #89
pc86 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so I misspoke. I don't want anyone to see I'm using the commode. That's why the door is closed. I've lived places where the bathroom door is open most of the time, so just closing it is sufficient. I've lived places where it's closed all the time (e.g. pets) so it gets locked.

>I don't want anyone to see I'm using the commode so then why ? maybe because of shame. So then its the shame that need to be fixed.

Or maybe its none of yours or anyone else's damned business. Point is it's not incumbent on a person to explain WHY they need or want that privacy.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#93

Post by [deleted] »

inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

[deleted]

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#94

Post by matz1 »

Rooster61 wrote: post #92
matz1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't want anyone to see I'm using the commode so then why ? maybe because of shame. So then its the shame that need to be fixed.

Or maybe its none of yours or anyone else's damned business. Point is it's not incumbent on a person to explain WHY they need or want that privacy.

So privacy matters because 'thats your business'.

Then it is equally valid for some other people to say privacy doesn't matter because 'none of yours or anyone else's damned business'.

If you trying to convince other why privacy matters, thats not going to be helpful.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#95

Post by electrondood »

treis wrote: post #81
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

I don't mind people seeing me eating a meal in a restaurant. I'd have a problem if someone pulled up a chair and started staring at me. You can't use intensive actions to show how minor ones are objectionable. And further, as a rule of thumb if someone is dealing in hypotheticals it means they don't have actual proof of harm. You'd never make an argument like this if you could point to Bob Jones and say "X happened t…

The claim "I have nothing to hide so I don't care," is actually the claim that privacy is not intrinsically valuable.

I think you can absolutely use an intensive action to show that lesser ones are objectionable.

"If privacy is not important in itself, why are you covering your body with underwear and pants? Why don't you put cameras throughout your house, including your bedroom?"

Clearly our actions reveal that we DO think privacy is important in itself. What "I have nothing to hide" really means is "I have not yet been personally affected, so I don't care." It's apathy, not a value statement.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#96

Post by electrondood »

piyh wrote: post #86
meowster wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of those questions, just ask them if they have blinds or curtains on their windows at home. It's better to show that they already take steps to be private rather than asking privacy-invasive questions. One of those makes you the bad guy, the other shows that they actually do value privacy.

Or the more direct, "Do you shit with the door open?"

This is the most succinct expression I've ever seen of the only counterargument you need.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#97

Post by pkulak »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #70
cortic wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted this five months ago, but its still relevant: My nothing to hide argument; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some…

I tend to go into a different direction: "Sure, you don't have anything to hide today. But what about tomorrow? Or next year?" Did you know that law enforcement and justice can request and will try to gain access to data you share with any company? "Oh, but I have done nothing wrong." The definition of "nothing wrong" isn't set in stone. It's always up for interpretation. You might feel you're doing nothing wrong, bu…

The "But I've done nothing wrong" response always reminds me of this talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#98

Post by smaryjerry »

treis wrote: post #81
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

I don't mind people seeing me eating a meal in a restaurant. I'd have a problem if someone pulled up a chair and started staring at me. You can't use intensive actions to show how minor ones are objectionable. And further, as a rule of thumb if someone is dealing in hypotheticals it means they don't have actual proof of harm. You'd never make an argument like this if you could point to Bob Jones and say "X happened t…

Reminds of me a child getting super close and saying “I’m not touching you.” They could touch you if they wanted or may touch you by mistake which makes it frustrating, it’s a kind of power. I think we need to understand with private knowledge comes power. We can’t trust normal people we don’t know with that power. People who are just working a job. Hell even most people don’t trust the opposite political parties president with power let alone corporations. To limit that we have to move them away and not even give them the chance to abuse it.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#99

Post by type0 »

inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

> but this post should've been more focused on education from the get-go

Meanwhile many schools are rolling out Chromebooks and are happy about it.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#100

Post by dionidium »

meowster wrote: post #64
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Instead of those questions, just ask them if they have blinds or curtains on their windows at home. It's better to show that they already take steps to be private rather than asking privacy-invasive questions. One of those makes you the bad guy, the other shows that they actually do value privacy.

We don't have curtains, actually. We have some pull-down blinds that are almost always in the up position. And I have to be honest: I only care about walking in front of my windows naked to the extent that it would bother my neighbors. I couldn't care any less. I only ever pull them down to spare my neighbors any embarrassment.

Which is just to say: a lot of privacy talk is mere question-begging. It's assumed we all feel the same privacy-based emotions (and pro-privacy arguments like yours attempt to appeal to those emotions), but I find that I rarely share my interlocutor's intuitions on this topic, so your argument is still ahead of you.

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