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Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

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Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#151
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop yes, but you are spending money and carbon on re-creating sunlight. > Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs Monocultures are spectacularly fragile. You have to be extraordinarily care…

They are problems though, we haven't used all of the globes arable land but that doesn't mean we are able to or even should. Consider that much of the remaining arable land is forests we really need to keep. Not all of that is suitable to the types of crops we want to grow, and not all of it is available to the countries currently requiring more food. Arable land is a resource not available to everyone as well, and w…

> Absolutely there is room for development of more traditional farming

I'm not talking about traditional farming. I'm talking about using "low tech" solutions but monitoring them scientifically.

For example, flooding in the UK is becoming a bigger problem, partly because of more rain, partly because people are allowed to live on flood plains. However a significant change is the way farming has modified land drainage. The soil contains less humus (spongey black/brown stuff, not hummus :)) which means it's much more like sand and doesn't absorb water.

This water runs off, taking the fertiliser, and soil with it. This clogs up and kills rivers, and because there is no capacity to hold water in the land, it all disgorges into streams and rivers at once, causing floods.

Improving soil health costs money, more money than fertiliser in the short term. There are no real incentives to change this. Everyone knows that soil health is degrading, but there isn't agreement on how to proceed.

> Record droughts already cause huge economic damage nearly every year

Farming has a massive impact on droughts. it also has a massive impact on heat absorption. hence my statement on mixed tree/arable.

Its less productive, but moderates water loss and heat gain. It also is a boon to wildlife. it can be made almost as productive if there is some form of intense labour. Assuming that we can mechanise it effectively we can remove the barriers to adoption.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#152
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food sovereignty is a thing - an open air farm in Africa has geopolitical and weather risks. Not to mention the shipping carbon footprint and freshness issues.

Places like Middle East, Singapore and also USA majority of foods are being imported anyway.

The US produces more food than any other country except China. It imports only a small portion of its food.

https://www.wlj.net/top_headlines/americans-consume-mostly-u...

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#153
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recall another study showing that it was more carbon efficient buying frozen mutton from New Zealand in London than it was buying local fresh mutton. I wouldn't mind seeing that calculation!

> The research showed that for each tonne of NZ lamb produced and imported, 688kg of CO2 is emitted. When compared to the 2849.1kg of CO2 emitted in UK production, the most sustainable lamb would appear to be that from NZ. https://www.ecoandbeyond.co/articles/british-new-zealand-lam...

Thanks! See table 5: https://researcharchive.lincoln.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10182...

NZ-UK Transport does take about 20% of the energy budget, so it's not insignificant, but farming lamb is just a lot less energy intensive in NZ.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#154
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other crops are not just scaled up versions of salads. I didn't claim they were. But Salads are a good way to get a whole pile of principles figured out (contamination, environmental effects on the gear, basic robotics, deals with potential customers and so on). > Bulk foods (wheat, potatoes, sugar beets, cassava, rice) cannot be grown efficiently in such vertical farms, at any scale, with current technology. That'…

"I didn't claim they were." I know you didn't, but (without wanting to put words into your mouth), the more abstract claim was that there is some sort of technology path from growing salads to growing other crops, which (I'm claiming) there isn't, or at least not to a significant degree. The things you mention are already solved, have been for many years; it has been a specialty and major export product of our countr…

Vertical, robotic farms can compete favorably with greenhouses because of reduced labor costs, increased energy efficiency and better usage of available space. That's enough of a difference that it will disrupt under glass growing. If that's all it does it is already well worth the investment, if it does more than that that would be an amazing bonus (but I'm not counting on it for reasons that you've already touched on).

I disagree with that 'feeds some restaurants', regular consumers take in far more in terms of leafy greens, tomatoes, cucumbers and a raft of other vegetables besides than the restaurants do (in particular right now, but also under more normal conditions).

If anybody cracks the staple foods under glass problem with any degree of efficiency that would really be a game changer but this vertical farm option is already quite impressive from what I've seen. There are some interesting trials underway in NL by people that at least seem to know what they are doing.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- 250x less water - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop - Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs - Saving the cost of SCM (transport and intermediaries) which is sometimes much bigger than producing. In farming is actually a…

KaiserPro had good rebuttals to some of your points[1] so I won't repeat those, but here are some more: > - 250x less water Most crops are grown with this thing called "rain" and without any supplemental water. Using just rain means they are part of the natural transpiration and precipitation cycle, so their unnatural water usage is 0. > transport Bulk transport is incredibly efficient. IIRC, many food products spend…

> Most crops are grown with this thing called "rain"

Do you mean 'most of the volume' or 'most of the crop types'? In case of the first I wonder where that's based on? Perhaps you even have a source?

I assume you mean 'rain' in the most direct sense, as water that falls down directly on/near the plants (as opposed to draining from a basin of water that 'used to be rain', which perhaps is true for many H2O molecules).

And would you say we have enough farmland that can be irrigated by rain (with some degree of consistency also in face of climate change) to feed the every growing population?

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#156
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

Counterintuitively, I have previously been told that you can actually grow more than one square meter of plants with one square meter of solar panels. The reason for this is that LED lighting can be designed to produce exactly the frequencies plants actually absorb, and distributed optimally through the day. Current solar technology isn't sufficient to make that cheaper than regular farming for staple crops, but I ca…

Regular solar panels are about 6x more efficient than the photosynthesis of all plants except sugar cane. LEDs reduce some of this headroom by not being 100% efficient, but if the system needs some heat anyways that isn't an issue.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop yes, but you are spending money and carbon on re-creating sunlight. > Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs Monocultures are spectacularly fragile. You have to be extraordinarily care…

> What agriculture really needs is an effective way to make and keep decent soil. Growing up on a farm in Germany, this is just what I would call decent farming and this is not rocket science. The knowledge how to do this is there and imho it does not involve some "tech disruption". Agriculture, at least in Germany, is highly mechanized/technized and in the end it does not matter if you look at conventional/"industri…

I somehow never considered you can just test the soil for nutritions, which is utterly stupid as I do just that with my freshwater aquarium.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#159
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earth: 29% Land, 71% Ocean Land: 71% Habitable, 29% Not Agricultural: 2.3% of all habitable land Livestock: 8% of all habitable land Looking at the stats, your question is very valid. We can drastically increase food production by marginally decreasing land dedicated for livestock and/or utilizing unused habitable land. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/Global-land-use-g...

Those stats also do not indicate how much the agricultural land is being used to grow animal feed. In fact if a crop is grown but inadequate quality for selling for humans, it is sold at a massive discount as animal feed. Reducing the variability in crop yields, as vertical farming should do, should make the 2.3% more efficient. We need to be careful about how we reduce livestocks globally. Naively interfering in the…

Those stats also do not indicate how much the agricultural land is being used to grow animal feed.

I don't have links, sorry, but IIRC it's about 33% used for animal feed.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#160
post #101

Disclaimer: I've grown tomatoes, strawberries and weed indoors with artificial lighting. As long as there is no shocking event like global drought or famine I do not think vertical farming or indoor farming will be a norm anytime soon as it takes massive, massive amount of energy/capital. That being said, the moment we figure out using fusion energy, conventional farming will most probably vanish. Also R&D on agricul…

Yep, it's all about cost of energy. The solar farm that powers a vertical farm will always take up more space than the vertical farm saves.

We have a nice podcast episode about this, maybe this interests you: https://www.predictions-podcast.com/2020/03/29/vertical-farm...

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