Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide” • Hacker News Board

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#41

Post by pc86 » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:05 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #31

I would rather privacy to not matters, why? Because hiding information incur cost and inconveniences. The only reason i may care about privacy is because the information can be used to hurt me. What need to be solved is the issue of "information used to harm" instead of hiding the information(privacy) What is the real issue of want to lock my bathroom door? Because someone could hurt me while I take a shit, but if th…

This is just absolutely wrong.

I don't close the door when I use the restroom because I fear physical harm. I just don't want someone walking in while I'm using the commode.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#42

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:06 PM UTC

The worst part about the concept of having "nothing to hide" is in the US you get tried by a jury for certain criminal cases. If you have something that a lawyer can't paint as illegal but clearly is not, it doesn't matter what your rights are. The jury is sending you to prison. Even if you didn't commit a crime.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#43

Post by pw6hv » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:06 PM UTC

Nothing to hide is a very relative concept. How many times it happens that something a famous person says or writes is completely decontextualized and thus the message that passes from their words is not what they wanted to convey?

The same thing can happen to anyone of us if our private life is looked with the eyes of another person.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#44

Post by etripe » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #34

pantelisk wrote: post #18

(from FabioAEsteves). "Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door."

Not sure if it's the same though. It doesn't work for me. Why do we like to defecate in privacy? What is the evolutionary reason? Animals do this too. Dogs only get to business when you give them some privacy and they like to get in the bushes if they can. I would assume it's an instinctive drive to get away from the community, to go somewhere with little social activity, so we don't make our living spaces dirty and…

> Niemals do this too

You probably misspelt "Animals", but "niemals" is German for "never" or "no way". Gave me a chuckle in context.

On topic: there's probably more to it in humans, because animals don't have cultural phenomena like shame about their sexual organs, making embarrassing noises or smelling bad.

I would say the parallel with defecating in private is valid, as it can lead to the same perceived loss of social status as "not earning enough" or "having an unacceptable opinion".

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#45

Post by raspyberr » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return. When people use Facebook/Google etc. they get a service that they end up valuing very highly in return. That common argument of "Give me your phone and PIN" is so pointless because people wouldn't even give that stuff to Facebook if it didn't give them anything back.

We've got to find a better set of arguments that we can use to convince people. I'm very strongly into privacy rights and I'm not convinced by this argument. Why would someone who doesn't care be convinced?

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#46

Post by pc86 » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #34

pantelisk wrote: post #18

(from FabioAEsteves). "Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door."

Not sure if it's the same though. It doesn't work for me. Why do we like to defecate in privacy? What is the evolutionary reason? Animals do this too. Dogs only get to business when you give them some privacy and they like to get in the bushes if they can. I would assume it's an instinctive drive to get away from the community, to go somewhere with little social activity, so we don't make our living spaces dirty and…

> I don't think this is the same kind of thing as trying to keep one's political opinions or salary private.

Not only that, but the community isn't better served by someone shitting in public. You can make the argument that if everyone's salary was public information the community as a whole would be better off. Yet we still have people at all points on the income spectrum hiding their salary for various reasons.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#47

Post by wegs » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

pantelisk wrote: post #18

(from FabioAEsteves). "Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door."

No. You, as a point of fact, don't know what I'm doing in the bathroom.

* I might be picking a big booger with my pointer finger.

* I might be cleaning my butt in ways which are offensive in your culture, whether using my right hand in the India, without TP in the US, or in a hundred other ways.

* I might be managing a really nasty fungal growth somewhere you can't see.

* I might be pleasing myself.

* I might not be washing my hands after I pee.

* I might be inspecting a polyp for cancer.

* I might be writing "For a good time, call" graffiti, leaving the phone number of your mother/sister/daughter/wife.

* I might be dealing with my period.

... and so on.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#48

Post by MaxBarraclough » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:11 PM UTC

DoubleGlazing wrote: post #11

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

I like to counter the "If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide" argument with... "If I have done nothing wrong, then no one has the need to take an interest in my personal affairs."

This doesn't strike me as a very compelling response.

If someone is arguing for dragnet surveillance with the idea that it only really impacts the guilty, and you respond by pointing out that you're innocent so there's nothing to gain by surveilling you, you haven't refuted their position at all.

edit I see we're retreading an exchange (between others) from a few months back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23709602

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#49

Post by jsinai » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #27

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

You could argue that there are some obvious things that should be kept secret, but not what can be tracked on the internet etc for purposes of providing you better recommendations or improving your life in general. That being said I'm a very private person and I wouldn't want to give out any data, but just playing a devil's advocate here.

I hear you and understand where you are coming from. This is the reason many websites use cookies and many of these cookies may be functional in that sense.

However a grey line starts to emerge when companies use the argument “tracking to make better recommendations and improve your life in general”. This may be innocuous on the company’s part, eg “we just want to make a better recommendation out of the hundreds, maybe thousands or millions of products we have”. And yes it may improve my life in so far as consumer satisfaction is able to momentarily or even permanently do so.

However there is a weight of responsibility here, which other comments also refer to, and this that in totality the privacy cost may actually be so invasive and so easy to aggregate in the wrong hands, and so difficult for individuals to have control of, that “make better recommendations and improve [consumer] life in general” becomes hard to justify.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#50

Post by selfhoster11 » Mon, Dec 14, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #19

Many a man that says he cares about privacy also doesn't really care, to be honest. One thing that has always irked me is the carelessness by which a man may give out, and is expected to give out, his full name. Almost everyone has accepted that this is a bad idea on the internet, but in corporal social interaction full names are given out as if they be blowjobs, and so much information can be uncovered from a man's…

It's expected that not much embarrassing information would be out in the open under a person's full name.

I have nothing against giving my name to in-person acquaintances, simply because they don't have access to the right resources to dig under the surface of my public image. If they do have access to such resources, I trust them anyway to not pry too hard.