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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#91

Post by Jun8 »

Duff wrote: post #75
Jun8 wrote: post #68

(This is a recurrent fantasy of mine) I think we should have an independent armed forces with the power to intervene in gross violations of human rights, something like the UN but with exponentially more authority (current UN peace keeping forces are a joke, e.g. see Srebrenica massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre , for just one example of many). This force would have the initiative to wage war…

It sounds good until you explore the details. At the end of the day, someone pays the bills, and whomever controls the checkbook tends to set the agenda. There is no such thing as independence. Flashback to 1985. The Soviet puppet government was committing all sorts of atrocities against people in Afghanistan. Clearly the moral imperative was to stand up for the "freedom fighters", right?

Right, any human-governed force will be corruptible. Now combine this with another fantasy: A benign Skynet-like central authority for such a force, its prime directive being the maximization of welfare for humans (a utilitarian approach, that has its flaws). Or the authority can be made totally decentralized, i.e. "all people on the world with cellphones vote: should we attack North Korea"?

One problem with this would be the "saving fish from drowning" syndrome, e.g. intervening certain acts where the "victims" are all too willing. An example is France's draconian recent law (which I totally back) against burqas: evidently these women are doing this willingly (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/10/france-burqa-law...), so how can our force intervene?

The more you think about it, the more you realize that, although the current situation is unacceptable and despicable, there are no clear alternatives to it. This is indeed a sad thought.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#92

Post by lotusleaf1987 »

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #9

"I can admire China’s growth in infrastructure and technology, it’s pursuit to compete on a global scale, but what good is all that growth if it allows these crimes to go on next door?" I admire America's prominence in infrastructure and technology, it's continuing domination on a global scale, but what good is all that power when over 40,000 people and rising are murdered because of a drug war for which they are com…

They're being murdered because of our own un-pragramatic religious and ideological interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I agree with the right to bear arms, but there should a limit. A hand-gun with a limited magazine seems reasonable, an assault rifle with armor piercing bullets and an extended magazine doesn't.

In 2005 when the assualt weapons ban was lifted the cartels were able to get their hands on a cheaper and better source of weapons. The balance of power shifted more to the cartels as they were able to get better weapons. We should be helping Mexico because the cartels are beginning to look like an insurgency.

Edit: If you're downvoting me can you at least try to explain why it's not our fault that our weapons sold in the US are being used to murder civilians and contribute to a narco-state? Felipe Calderon even said this as recently as yesterday on Bloomberg.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#93

Post by jhamburger »

sedachv wrote: post #81
jhamburger wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would you rather be? Is it a close decision?

If I was a black male in the United States, I would have a 1 in 10 chance of being in prison at this moment. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta... ) Amnesty International estimates there's around 200,000 "political prisoners" in North Korea, out of a population of 25 million. I think I'd rather be in North Korea.

I think I'd take a 10% chance of being in prison over a 100% chance of being a NK citizen.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#94

Post by elliottcarlson »

sedachv wrote: post #81
jhamburger wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would you rather be? Is it a close decision?

If I was a black male in the United States, I would have a 1 in 10 chance of being in prison at this moment. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta... ) Amnesty International estimates there's around 200,000 "political prisoners" in North Korea, out of a population of 25 million. I think I'd rather be in North Korea.

The remaining populous of North Korea that are outside of these camps aren't living a life of luxury - the day to day life there is still not comparable to the prison system.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#95

Post by run4yourlives »

Jun8 wrote: post #68

(This is a recurrent fantasy of mine) I think we should have an independent armed forces with the power to intervene in gross violations of human rights, something like the UN but with exponentially more authority (current UN peace keeping forces are a joke, e.g. see Srebrenica massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre , for just one example of many). This force would have the initiative to wage war…

The most powerful military the world has ever known already exists; and it would not be capable of "fixing" North Korea or Libya without sustaining (and more importantly, inflicting) significant casualties. The best course of action, militarily speaking, would probably be to significantly nuke Pyongyang quickly and have S. Korea take over administration of the country. This is not politically or morally acceptable.

That's part of the problem: The moment you declare a regime as morally bankrupt, you are stating your own goals are somehow more enlightened and worthy. In some cases this works, like against the Nazis, but in most, like the Yugoslav war you cite, it's only a matter of opinion - For every Srebrenica there is a Krajina, unfortunately. The people involved in such generational hatred do not escape their own guilt, regardless of which particular side they may be on in any particular indecent. Getting involved in these quagmires often only intensifies the conflicting hatred for a later date. Even worse, who then protects us from the protectors?

Your desire is a noble one but unfortunately completely at odds with human nature.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#96

Post by [deleted] »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #77
johnmossel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohhh... someone gonna cry?

No - it's just a ridiculous statement. A governments action does not reflect the opinion of the occupants of that country. Neither does it reflect that of an independent organization even if it is based in a country who has a different stance that may been seen as hypocritical. Does your government and leadership reflect everything you stand for?

[deleted]

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#97

Post by jacoblyles »

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for purely political transgressions, is indicative of the erosion of one axis of our moral compass and the early sign of a culture and a nation turning in on itself and destroying itself.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#98

Post by run4yourlives »

Jun8 wrote: post #91
Duff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds good until you explore the details. At the end of the day, someone pays the bills, and whomever controls the checkbook tends to set the agenda. There is no such thing as independence. Flashback to 1985. The Soviet puppet government was committing all sorts of atrocities against people in Afghanistan. Clearly the moral imperative was to stand up for the "freedom fighters", right?

Right, any human-governed force will be corruptible. Now combine this with another fantasy: A benign Skynet-like central authority for such a force, its prime directive being the maximization of welfare for humans (a utilitarian approach, that has its flaws). Or the authority can be made totally decentralized, i.e. "all people on the world with cellphones vote: should we attack North Korea"? One problem with this wou…

>Or the authority can be made totally decentralized, i.e. "all people on the world with cellphones vote: should we attack North Korea"

That's great until you replace "North Korea" with your unpopular region. Asking that same question right now about the US would probably come close to passing.

The western world is founded on the rights of the individual above that of the collective. Your suggestions are counter to this philosophy.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#99

Post by totalforge »

All North Koreans that are not in the elite inner circle are slaves. China, though annoyed, cannot act, since NK is a fellow Communist nation, though they are the goofy pseudo-Stalinist type.

Eventually the regime will collapse, and NK will become a humanitarian project that will dwarf anything that has come before it.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#100

Post by ajkessler »

jacoblyles wrote: post #97

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

If I've learned anything, it's that we can't judge. Nope.

Regime that interns its people in death camps? A system that engenders such poverty that people are forced into cannibalism? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1875007335054132657#)

Couldn't possibly judge. Nope, not with all the similar problems here in the evil ol' US of A.

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