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Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

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Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#101
Disclaimer: I've grown tomatoes, strawberries and weed indoors with artificial lighting.

As long as there is no shocking event like global drought or famine I do not think vertical farming or indoor farming will be a norm anytime soon as it takes massive, massive amount of energy/capital.

That being said, the moment we figure out using fusion energy, conventional farming will most probably vanish.

Also R&D on agriculture robots is a nice side perk, there is only so much to automate in agriculture & horticulture.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#102
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other crops are not just scaled up versions of salads. Bulk foods (wheat, potatoes, sugar beets, cassava, rice) cannot be grown efficiently in such vertical farms, at any scale, with current technology. Having lots of multi-story greenhouses does not contribute to developing the sort of radical innovative tech that would be required for staple foods.

> Other crops are not just scaled up versions of salads. I didn't claim they were. But Salads are a good way to get a whole pile of principles figured out (contamination, environmental effects on the gear, basic robotics, deals with potential customers and so on). > Bulk foods (wheat, potatoes, sugar beets, cassava, rice) cannot be grown efficiently in such vertical farms, at any scale, with current technology. That'…

"I didn't claim they were."

I know you didn't, but (without wanting to put words into your mouth), the more abstract claim was that there is some sort of technology path from growing salads to growing other crops, which (I'm claiming) there isn't, or at least not to a significant degree. The things you mention are already solved, have been for many years; it has been a specialty and major export product of our country for decades (as you indubitably know).

"Bulk foods (more properly called staple foods)"

I didn't use that word on purpose. What I roughly wanted to say was "root crops, grains, tree crops, basically anything that isn't herbs or salads", but that wouldn't be accurate either (carrots are root crops but not a staple and can to some degree be grown in substrates). But probably it's a distinction without a difference, in this context. I think it's fair, for the sake of the discussion, to talk about "leafy greens" vs "non leafy greens", even though "but tomatoes" etc.

"Bulk foods do just fine in regular soil where ever they are being grown, and do so reasonably efficiently."

No they do not, at least under other circumstances than precisely the ones we want to get away from, with indiscriminate use of nitrates and pesticides. I happen to have a yield model for various crops in the EU here open on my other monitor, that I've been working with for several months now. Agriculture as we do it today in the western EU cannot be done efficiently without intensive farming methods. Without fertilizer, yields are a factor of 2 to 4 lower. That is an absolutely game changing difference.

"A vertical farm does not compete with in soil agriculture in open air, it competes with greenhouses."

Well I'm not sure any more what we're arguing here. The OP's point was "Vertical farms don't feed people. They are basically a solution to just in time delivery for restaurants and nothing else." Which, to some degree, holds for greenhouses (depending on definitions). The food production problems we have is not that we don't have enough area for greenhouses, or that we can't grow enough leafy greens; greenhouses are so efficient that we're not constrained by land for the demand we have for food that can be grown in them. What we need is more space efficient production of high calorie foods, in ways that don't degrade the environment in the ways and to the extent current methods do. Neither vertical farms nor greenhouses (I mean, 'vertical farm' is just a marketing word for 'multi story greenhouse') will be of any use for that.

But maybe your point is something entirely different and relates to the OP in a different way, in which case our whole discussion is moot.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think LED lights are the ultimate solution. They could use light pipes during the day when it’s sunny to route sunlight from outside and distribute it inside possible using fiber optics. Eg https://youtu.be/DN8GXTmR6RI This is a passive system and would require little to no power.

Consider the ratio of growth area to exposed surface area. 14x in this case. It's a vertical farm to maximise this ratio. Light pipes may be slightly more efficient than PV in energy conversion during daylight hours, but they do not scale horizontally as the farm scales vertically. For this project in Denmark, the energy comes from abundant wind, not weak and intermittent sun.

I think you should take into account that plants can differ enormously. Small plants that don't grow in tight grids get some fancy 14x multiplier but once you actually try to grow a space efficient plant like wheat it just doesn't work out. The crop is already maximizing exposure to the sun to an incredible degree. Vertical farming can't increase this "efficiency" other than by adding more layers which will always involve uneconomical artificial lighting.

Growing easy plants... is easy. Not every plant is easy to grow in a vertical farm.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#104
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- 250x less water - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop - Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs - Saving the cost of SCM (transport and intermediaries) which is sometimes much bigger than producing. In farming is actually a…

On top of that: this style of farming is additive to other uses of the same land area, not exclusive. Having a traditional 100-acre farm demands a loss of 100 acres of land in opportunity cost. Vertical farming allows to use the same land for residential or commercial development, or it allows for 100 acres of food production in only 10 acres of land.

Are there constrains wrt a given acre of land only receives a fixed average sunlight?

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#106

Why is it only possible to grow leafy greens with hydroponics? Is it a because of the size of the actual plant?

The main issue is providing enough lighting/energy rather than growth medium.

Everything is possible to grow with hydroponics although it is a little tricky.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- 250x less water - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop - Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs - Saving the cost of SCM (transport and intermediaries) which is sometimes much bigger than producing. In farming is actually a…

> - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop yes, but you are spending money and carbon on re-creating sunlight. > Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs Monocultures are spectacularly fragile. You have to be extraordinarily care…

They are problems though, we haven't used all of the globes arable land but that doesn't mean we are able to or even should. Consider that much of the remaining arable land is forests we really need to keep. Not all of that is suitable to the types of crops we want to grow, and not all of it is available to the countries currently requiring more food.

Arable land is a resource not available to everyone as well, and we shouldn't assume we can just take it from those who have it. The global economy is more complicated than that.

And lastly, climate change is set to shake things up significantly. Record droughts already cause huge economic damage nearly every year, and it is only just beginning. We are going to need more control and stability over our food sources.

Absolutely there is room for development of more traditional farming but I think it would be naive to imagine that it would all just work out fine in a global market utopia. It is worth developing this technology.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#108
post #93
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite get the point you are making. Can you rephrase it?

You can't plow a mountain side and grow acres of corn or build a feedlot. But you can run cattle and sheep over it which are able to forage the grasses while climbing the terrain. So mountainous people are able to obtain calories from animals in places otherwise unsuitable for more conventional farming methods.

No one is trying to force people to abandon their locally sourced food. The problem is with people in developed nations who live in cities. Also the point is you wouldn't need to expand the farmlands, quite the opposite.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#110
post #70
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is very simple: Food is what is called strategic interest for a given country. Food is essential for live, you have no food, you die. If you or your children starve you will pay anything for food. Society's stability depend of the supply and price of food. E.g It is said that "Arab's spring" was about "people wanting freedom". It was really about food being ultra expensive in the north of Africa and specul…

> Food is essential for live, you have no food, you die. If you or your children starve you will pay anything for food. Society's stability depend of the supply and price of food. That doesn't mean your country has to grow it. A much better solution for individual food security is food stamps. If your country has problems with a temporary lack of food one of the easiest things to do is to import more and if nesacery…

Only so long as you CAN import it. Which means you need to ask from where - which gets into a large number of political issues. You may be forced to overlook something evil (slave labor), or even contribute to evil (pay bribes to someone who is turning around and using those bribes to fund an army that is planning to attack you).

Just because the world is currently politically stable for those reading this does not mean that will continue.

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