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Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

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Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#91
post #59
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- Independence from other countries. Very important for small ones like Denmark that wouldn't have alternative to planting on their own soil. This does not seem like an important thing, it seems like an unimportant thing that can politicians can try to make a thing out of. It seems like it would be much cheaper and easier to just buy crops from abroad

> This does not seem like an important thing, it seems like an unimportant thing that can politicians can try to make a thing out of. Quite the contrary: at least in Norway politicians have been busily pushing your side of the story for decades and only stopped pushing it earlier this year. > It seems like it would be much cheaper and easier to just buy crops from abroad If you said this last year many would have agr…

In Norway, food self-sufficiency has been a political issue ever since the Napoleonic wars and the British naval blockade on Denmark-Norway 200 years ago, to the point that the importance of self-sufficiency were taught from early in primary schools at least until the 1980's.

It grew in political importance as the national-romanticism movement grew, and then blew up massively in political importance after World War II demonstrated just how little it took to disrupt external supplies.

One might reasonably argue it's the reason Norway isn't in the EU - Norwegian agriculture and fishery policy is based very strongly on a view on self-sufficiency that includes high subsidies not originally for the sake of farmers, but for the sake of national security. It's also behind a lot of the push for retaining rural settlements.

It's first in relatively recent time (last 30 years or so) that this has receded in importance.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#92
post #80
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ain't this the truth. It's an incredibly inefficient way to feed the human race. And to boot, there's fewer starving livestock then there are starving humans.

Northern Europeans and many steppe peoples exist largely because livestock can be raised on terrain that's not suitable for animal farming.

Factory farming uses almost no land. The animals never leave the building or their cage.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#93
post #87
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Northern Europeans and many steppe peoples exist largely because livestock can be raised on terrain that's not suitable for animal farming.

I don't quite get the point you are making. Can you rephrase it?

You can't plow a mountain side and grow acres of corn or build a feedlot. But you can run cattle and sheep over it which are able to forage the grasses while climbing the terrain.

So mountainous people are able to obtain calories from animals in places otherwise unsuitable for more conventional farming methods.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#94
post #56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similar farms can be built on Mars. I'm an Elon fanboi but please let's start with desertified populated regions first so we have time to build a Mars colony without having to deal with civil wars

Both objectives can be worked on at the same time. I don't really like that argument. We could say "let's end hunger first then focus on computer games, or beer, or vacations, etc". Ending world hunger is way more important than those things but you can't expect we stop doing them to focus on something that is already being addressed but is very complex.

You can't solve world hunger on the supply side. There will always be more hunger afterwards.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#95
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

> why don't we invest in Africa, give them some huge machines and then buy their produce? Climate change will make most of Africa uninhabitable?

"If greenhouse gas emissions are not significantly reduced, part of the MENA [Middle East and North Africa] region risks becoming uninhabitable before the year 2100."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_the_Middle_E...

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#96
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

I don’t think LED lights are the ultimate solution. They could use light pipes during the day when it’s sunny to route sunlight from outside and distribute it inside possible using fiber optics. Eg https://youtu.be/DN8GXTmR6RI This is a passive system and would require little to no power.

Consider the ratio of growth area to exposed surface area. 14x in this case. It's a vertical farm to maximise this ratio.

Light pipes may be slightly more efficient than PV in energy conversion during daylight hours, but they do not scale horizontally as the farm scales vertically.

For this project in Denmark, the energy comes from abundant wind, not weak and intermittent sun.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vertical farms start with salads ('crunchy water') because they are easy crops to start such a process with. Once established and verified they will for sure move away from just leafy greens. The typical plan for a startup in this domain runs in the decades, not just a few years, and they're pretty capital intensive compared to software start-ups. Think of the salad producing vertical farm as you would of an MVP for…

Salads are economic to produce because they have no calories. Calories = Light (energy) + Fertiliser. Efficiency of an LED is like 40%, and Photosynthesis efficiency is like 2%. In other words calories are expensive and ineffieicent to produce through artificial lighting, no amount of 'startuping' will change that. Also nothing here is new, we've had greenhouses, artificial lighting, hydroponics, aquaponics, aeroponi…

Yes, we could use some numbers here. I.e., how much energy would it take to grow one kg of potatoes in artificial lighting. Compared to how much it takes to transport it by ship from Morocco to Copenhagen. Or by an electrical train from Spain.

Production of electricity from wind turbines fluctuates a lot. So does the price. I wonder if there are plants that you can give light when it is windy at any time of the day and leave in the dark when when electricity is expensive.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#98
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of growing cabbage in prime real estate in Copenhagen, why don't we invest in Africa, give them some huge machines and then buy their produce? Do we really need a repeat of the supply chains breaking down again to answer this question? African farmers were dismayed when their bumper crops were rotting in their fields because they couldn't export the crops or even sell the excess locally [0]. Livestock farme…

> It's hard to imagine that people haven't learned the value of having a robust local food supply chain, which is the one thing that I had hoped we had learned after the shortages and panic buying created during the 1st wave of COVID. This seems like a worst case scenario, and it still seems like an overblown issue. I would say its usually much easier to just import produce if your country is not good at it. Use larg…

Capturing bitcoin mining heat does not make it less energy intensive. If a bitcoin is worth X dollars it will always take X dollars worth of energy to produce a bitcoin. This is true even if you increase the efficiency of the miner.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vertical farms start with salads ('crunchy water') because they are easy crops to start such a process with. Once established and verified they will for sure move away from just leafy greens. The typical plan for a startup in this domain runs in the decades, not just a few years, and they're pretty capital intensive compared to software start-ups. Think of the salad producing vertical farm as you would of an MVP for…

Salads are economic to produce because they have no calories. Calories = Light (energy) + Fertiliser. Efficiency of an LED is like 40%, and Photosynthesis efficiency is like 2%. In other words calories are expensive and ineffieicent to produce through artificial lighting, no amount of 'startuping' will change that. Also nothing here is new, we've had greenhouses, artificial lighting, hydroponics, aquaponics, aeroponi…

There are some things that were not available 50 years ago. Better robots, better accumulators, flying drones, image recognition, AI able to make complex decisions. Those things might reduce need in humans and humans are not cheap.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#100
post #16
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

Earth: 29% Land, 71% Ocean Land: 71% Habitable, 29% Not Agricultural: 2.3% of all habitable land Livestock: 8% of all habitable land Looking at the stats, your question is very valid. We can drastically increase food production by marginally decreasing land dedicated for livestock and/or utilizing unused habitable land. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/Global-land-use-g...

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