Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#71

Post by FruityCoconut » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #50

FruityCoconut wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.

FBI crime stats are a great source. For example, of murders in 2019, "Black or African American" accounted for 51% of murderers of known race (despite just 13.4% of the general population being black). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

Less formally, and I'm quite serious, if you have the stomach for it I encourage you to explore the types of websites that inadvertently document these trends through amateur video (WorldStarHipHop being the classic example, but there are more confronting ones).

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#72

Post by TheNorthman » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #33

baron816 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Norwegian system is actually much cheaper than the American system when you account for lower recidivism rates and reduced prison sentences.

Is there a stigma that haunts former inmates upon release? In the US it seems ones career is essentially over once convicted of anything more than a traffic violation.

In Denmark it would be illegal for an employer to discriminate against former inmates _if their crime is irrelevant for the job at hand_.

In practice, though... At least it's automatically erased after (IIRC) five years, depending on severity.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#73

Post by pmoriarty » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:46 PM UTC

enahs-sf wrote: post #10

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

Have there been any studies comparing recidivism rates between these countries?

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#74

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #62

LatteLazy wrote: post #28

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

You of course spent 23 hours per day locked in your accommodations as well right?

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#75

Post by hackinthebochs » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

FruityCoconut wrote: post #46

hackinthebochs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

But crime rates do not by themselves entail retributive or punitive punishments. Because some demographic has high crime rates says nothing about the effectiveness of rehabilitative policies. People simply are more likely to have a punitive stance when the offender is of a different race.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#76

Post by tomjakubowski » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #38

LatteLazy wrote: post #28

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

History repeats itself. In the 1980s the State of Alabama was sued by prison inmates over the same concerns about the conditions they lived in. At trial the State pointed out that the student dorm rooms at Auburn University were not only smaller than the prison cells, but students had to pay for the privilege of living in them. Don't know how much of a difference it made, but the inmates lost their case.

You know that Alabama has just been sued a few days ago by the DOJ over their cruel prison conditions. These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions. That isn't the main issue in the suit though, it's the state's failure to protect inmates from rampant violence and abuse.

https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison...

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944879818/justice-dept-sues-a...

Remember that a typical American prison cell, shared by two to four prisoners, has a toilet in it as well. Not so in a college dorm.

Your story has gone around on Reddit but the ultimate source is this "bhamwiki" site which has no citations. https://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Auburn_University#Housing

Sounds like an apocryphal college legend to me. You're welcome to provide some better citations for it.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#77

Post by Arnt » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #73

enahs-sf wrote: post #10

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

Have there been any studies comparing recidivism rates between these countries?

Of course.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#78

Post by Arnt » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

One would do well to remember that cause has to come before effect. The Norwegian criminal policy is decades older than that fund.

One would also do well to keep in mind that the main effect of that fund is to block the state from spending money. Taxes are diverted to the fund from the budget where it could be spent on prisons or other things.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#79

Post by onecommentman » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 11:29 PM UTC

legacynl wrote: post #37

aksss wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the…

> Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). Can you cite a source that shows that this matters? It's pretty obvious how the difference in methods between the two prison systems can easily explain the difference in outcome, without having to jump to the 'race/culture'-card. Simply put, having prisoners cost money. You have to pay for housing them, and the opportunity cos…

“the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger.”

Can you cite a source that shows this is true? Skip the weasel word “probably” and set the opportunity cost to be the contribution of someone with their education and (lack of) social skills and many times as something > 3 times.

There is no such thing as a “culture card”. If there is any “science” to the social science of sociology, there is a measure of ethnic and cultural cohesion to societies that may or may not explain behaviors. That’s like saying to an engineer, “Well, if you want to play the material hardness card...”

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#80

Post by onecommentman » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 11:36 PM UTC

tomjakubowski wrote: post #76

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History repeats itself. In the 1980s the State of Alabama was sued by prison inmates over the same concerns about the conditions they lived in. At trial the State pointed out that the student dorm rooms at Auburn University were not only smaller than the prison cells, but students had to pay for the privilege of living in them. Don't know how much of a difference it made, but the inmates lost their case.

You know that Alabama has just been sued a few days ago by the DOJ over their cruel prison conditions. These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions. That isn't the main issue in the suit though, it's the state's failure to protect inmates from rampant violence and abuse. https://eji.org/news/justice-department-finds-alabama-prison...…

“These prisoners are sleeping in what looks like dozens of stacked bunks in a large open room, hardly college dormlike conditions”

Nope, more like the condition those who volunteered to serve their country by putting their actual physical lives on the line have to live in, along with the “hard labor” of boot camp and training. All for $1602 per month US dollars to start.