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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#21

Post by aksss »

ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society).

The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the size.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#22

Post by Privacy846 »

happytoexplain wrote: post #18
Privacy846 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

It's impossible to demonstrate that - to what extent the population drives policy and practice in all matters in which the state has a hand is just too socially complex.

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#23

Post by tinalumfoil »

Author makes some big claims without much evidence. The poor conditions of US prisons, and lack of focus on rehabilitation is I think pretty well known for anyone who cares, along with the opposite reality for Nordic prisons.

But you can't just throw your hands up and say, "money! corruption! racism!" and completely ignore that the American people asked for this system in response to rising crime waves. No matter how little corruption you get the American people as their thoughts stand today will never adopt the Nordic system.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#24

Post by Privacy846 »

aksss wrote: post #21
ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the…

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#25

Post by anti-shill »

ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

it's not that the american justice system is broken; it's that the american nation itself is broken...or perhaps it might be accurate to say that the american nation never really existed, and that nowadays the nation is a mere shadow of what was in the past only a pseudo-nation

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#26

Post by ajmurmann »

smt88 wrote: post #4
techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

> citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it While I think that's true, I also think it's missing another major argument: that prison is a deterrent. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it's a big part of the discussion. My feeling is that Nordic countries can have nice prisons because their social safety net is so strong. Maybe they can argue that being a fr…

Not a Nordic country, but the case still holds value: Japan apparently has a problem with lonely, old ladies doing minor crimes with the intention of going to prison where they are less lonely. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p...

So there is a danger of prisons becoming too attractive.

It's interesting though that the motivation isn't about creature comforts but about social connection. I wonder how much the reverse is true and not seeing your loved ones is a deterrent from prison. So much comes down to a healthy, connected society.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#27

Post by amanaplanacanal »

rayiner wrote: post #19
enahs-sf wrote: post #10

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

It’s not just the Nordic countries. In many European countries, such as Germany and Italy, someone serving a life sentence for murder is eligible to apply for parole after 15 years.

Average time served in the US for murder is less than that.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#29

Post by aparsons »

TheNorthman wrote: post #5
aparsons wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion: why do we need this? The people in prison are by and large human trash who have brought so much suffering to humanity. The quality of prisons in the US roughly correlates with the class of crime. I’d let it be.

Yeah. If you smoke weed, you deserve what you get.

The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been).

On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#30

Post by amanaplanacanal »

Privacy846 wrote: post #20
Mizza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less about what is spent on incarceration, and more about how state funds are spent in such away that people don't need to commit crime as much.

What money is spent on what, and where did the money come from? You seem to be in the know. How much does it cost society when one percent of the population is incarcerated? But I digress; the US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources so it’s an unfair comparison.

> US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but that's the exact opposite of what I believe is true.

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