Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#241

Post by bennysonething » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 11:51 AM UTC

mhaberl wrote: post #40

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

He is onto something there. Bean counting is useful and companies cannot survive without good cashflow, but it should not become Mission A of the company, or engineering (and other) talent will look elsewhere. If one company's de facto mission statement is "We want to grow our market by 8.2 per cent and give our bosses higher Christmas bonuses" and another one comes and says "Guys, we want to fly to fscking Mars!", c…

He is in a very specific situation, he is the founder and the CEO and has a lot of money to burn. He wants to do big things and he can do them. A lot of companies have stock holders who expect some return every year without risking too much. As a society we sure would be better off if had more Elon Musk type company leaders, but for that too happen we would need more exceptional people like him (not going to happen)…

Also the second biggest holder of Tesla stock is an asset management firm that looks for long term growth not short term. They invested really early.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#242

Post by sumanthvepa » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

Here’s the rub. I’m an MBA. But I’m primarily a programmer. I run my own firm, so some ‘MBA’ skills do get used. But you don’t need an MBA to run a business. Its not the degree that’s the problem. It’s the focus on the short term that’s toxic.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#243

Post by Balgair » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

He is onto something there. Bean counting is useful and companies cannot survive without good cashflow, but it should not become Mission A of the company, or engineering (and other) talent will look elsewhere. If one company's de facto mission statement is "We want to grow our market by 8.2 per cent and give our bosses higher Christmas bonuses" and another one comes and says "Guys, we want to fly to fscking Mars!", c…

> or engineering (and other) talent will look elsewhere.

The term for this process is 'The Elves are leaving Middle Earth'.

Coined by Steve Blank in 2009 about when the coffee and sodas aren't free anymore in the break room. When the bean counters look at the line item that is free coffee and soda, they see a big old number to cut. But it causes the staff to have to run over to the coffee shops to grab the joe, taking a lot longer time than the break room commute. Meaning that management isn't really thinking hard anymore. The talent notices this and starts to quietly put out the CV again, as they know that the company is going to go into stasis or downhill altogether without intelligent bosses.

https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#244

Post by dv_dt » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

higerordermap wrote: post #229

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great distinction. The anti-MBA movement is really trying to redefine what an MBA means. Bad business decisions are "M.B.A.-ization". Good business decisions are... something else. Therefore, MBAs are bad. There are plenty of bad MBAs running around, but it's no different than how we also have plenty of bad software developers out there despite having C.S. degrees. In both cases, the worst offenders are over-represen…

Quoting Joel Spolsky: "The cult of MBA makes you think you can manage the businesses that do things you don't understand" The problem is in thinking of MBA cult itself. If I was an MBA without software engineering experience I would also not understand intricacies but would think I can manage it anyway.

A recent major example of this may not be in the software area. The Boeing 737MAX was started and largely developed under Boeing's first non-engineer MBA oriented CEO. Of course to fix it the engineer CEO left holding the bag with the MAX has been replaced again with a non-engineer leader.

A counter example would be to ask the question if AMD could have navigated it's resurgence if it had not been led by deeply technical CEO, Lisa Su

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#245

Post by jedberg » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #235

jedberg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He also indicated his 2 companies Tesla and SpaceX are the last - automotive and aerospace companies in California, a state that was once a leader. Except it isn't true. Other companies still make rockets in SoCal. For example Areojet Rocketdyne is still headquartered in El Segundo (next to LAX). They made the main engine for the Space Shuttle and are currently still making it for the upcoming SLS.

Areojet Rocketdyne also gets 100s of million per engine because they live of massive SLS pork. They will produce a very small number of engines. Comparing that to what SpaceX is doing is a bit ridiculous.

You know SpaceX gets just as much money from the government, right? Actually a lot more. SpaceX wouldn't exist without government funding.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#246

Post by nickik » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #245

nickik wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Areojet Rocketdyne also gets 100s of million per engine because they live of massive SLS pork. They will produce a very small number of engines. Comparing that to what SpaceX is doing is a bit ridiculous.

You know SpaceX gets just as much money from the government, right? Actually a lot more. SpaceX wouldn't exist without government funding.

Its not the amount of money I'm complaining about but the amount of money compared to the services rendered. SpaceX has an amazing track record in terms of that.

The pork of the SLS program and the RS-25 program has been well document.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#247

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #226

socialdemocrat wrote: post #124

Somebody had to tell them. What a bunch of cry babies. These bean counters are ruinous to companies. And no, I don’t buy this simple narrative that MBAs are good for mature companies. Not at all. Look at companies like Boeing, ULA, Intel and others. Ruined by MBA guys. Why is AMD outperforming Intel today? Because they didn’t make an MBA person their CEO. You need somebody in charge who understands the technology, pr…

The CEOs of both ULA and Boeing are former engineers

An engineer, or not, it is not what makes ones work cargo culting.

Not so few engineers have embraced the "big business" cargo cult as well.

One many things which completely offput me from "big tech" was seeing tech heads having to satisfy the earning for seeing people speak big, and mean little. A price for acceptance in that world of big business.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#248

Post by fuzzfactor » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 4:38 AM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #83

johntb86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for stable firms they can be death. "Lights Out: Pride, Delusion, and the Fall of General Electric" makes the case that the MBA mindset (exemplified by Jeff Immelt) of focusing on finances and acquisitions while ignoring the actual products has been leading to the downfall of GE.

GE was burning the furniture to heat the house - what should be seen as a red flag - but nobody cared because there was just so much furniture it didn't seem like a problem until there was nowhere left to sit.

>GE was burning the furniture to heat the house

This is what happens when highly credentialed operators are brought in as decision makers, but they were not there from the beginning and have no idea how irreplaceable the specific furniture and its arrangement over the years actually is.

They didn't go through the building process. They might not even be builders at all, even if given more than enough resources.

And it doesn't matter to them fundamentally since their personal best oportunities will be with a different future organization anyway. Even if they stay, the organization will be different before they are done. More like the average company you could read about in business school, and more understandable for students, with much less focus on the unique things that brought that particular company as far as it had beforehand.

If a company has reached a lofty place and the decision making changes that significantly for some reason, it is most likely that there will be some sinking to a significantly less lofty position. And in some unfamiliar direction downward.

The best possible person to run a particular company will be using company-specific approaches and drawing on talents that very few MBAs possess.

For those MBAs who do have such rare natural talent, it has been a characteristic since before university anyway so the degree is definitely not necessary.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#249

Post by techsin101 » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 6:24 AM UTC

higerordermap wrote: post #229

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great distinction. The anti-MBA movement is really trying to redefine what an MBA means. Bad business decisions are "M.B.A.-ization". Good business decisions are... something else. Therefore, MBAs are bad. There are plenty of bad MBAs running around, but it's no different than how we also have plenty of bad software developers out there despite having C.S. degrees. In both cases, the worst offenders are over-represen…

Quoting Joel Spolsky: "The cult of MBA makes you think you can manage the businesses that do things you don't understand" The problem is in thinking of MBA cult itself. If I was an MBA without software engineering experience I would also not understand intricacies but would think I can manage it anyway.

Really clear quote.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#250

Post by snigacookie » Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

Hi, I’m a bean counter. We don’t cut your budgets. We keep the system going when people interact with purchasing equip,ent, getting you paid, processing your orders internally and externally. The ones cutting out your company swag and free coffee are your ceo, cfo and finance managers. The controller is often told to find a way to save money or fire people for the company’s shareholder fiduciary responsibilities. Your board members drain the organization of its resources and go unchecked.