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We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

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Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If illiteracy is a widespread issue, then there are bigger issues at play. Not to mention, do we really want people like that voting? After all, that would make one ineligible to perform other duties which require basic english proficiency required of citizens (military drafts, jury). Rights come with responsibilities. Lawyers would love to take a clear cut case on a contingent basis.

> If illiteracy is a widespread issue, then there are bigger issues at play. There are bigger issues at play [0]. Largely the echoing effects of white flight on second-tier cities, and politically motivated defunding of urban education. As with most of the other forms of systematic discrimination in our lives, there is always just enough plausible deniability to avoid judicial ramifications. I'm all for doing everyth…

That group is using a 5th grade reading level to indicate literacy. The citizenship test doesn't even require that level of literacy. Incorrect grammar and spelling are considered passing so long as the person can read and write well enough to communicate. A good gauge of that could be whether or not they can study from a book. I would be interested to see what percentage of illiterate people are voting now anyways.

The part of your comment that is a bit twisted is saying that we would be taking away someone's fundamental right under the current system. I'm not suggesting we take away anyone's current rights, but institute a new policy for future children to require the test for them. Under our current system the right to vote is only a right for citizens. As we wouldn't be removing anyone's citizenship, we wouldn't be stripping anyone of that right. Not to mention that the current test is allows some immigrants to vote and others not, due to literacy constraints. So why not extend that paradigm to people who are born here.

Finally, it seems the most important part of what I have said is consistently ignored - citizens have duties and to be a citizen one should be capable of performing those duties. That's a fundamental principle of democracy, as the people are the government. If being illiterate prevents one from being able to perform those duties, then they have have no reason to be afforded the privileges and specific rights from which they are derived (basic human rights would be intact).

If one can have all the rights and privileges of being a citizen without the responsibilities, why would they even want to be a citizen? What would being a citizen even mean at that point?

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact with journalism you know who's responsible for the bit they publish. And that the publisher can't hide behind the fact that they're 'not responsible for user generated content'. In most countries media is regulated, you're not allowed to advertise everywhere or publish lies. When Facebook says 'free speech' they actually mean 'free enterprise'.

And what is published is visible to everyone - who knows what is in targetted ads other than the people who are targetted?

This can be true and still not move the needle. In traditional media, how many people seek out the opinion of the other side? Increasingly fewer. I would guess fewer than 10% of people try to find information disconfirming their beliefs on even an occasional basis.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As anyone who has worked with databases probably knows (definitely should know), selection and ordering/ranking are two different things.

Could you explain this further? I'm using the generic term "ranking". It seems like you're using a very specific subset of an industry's version of 'ranking', and you're mixing it with the word "ordering". And, "as anyone who has worked with software development probably knows (definitely should know), ranking/ordering/ sorting can be done in many different ways".

> an industry's version of 'ranking'

Citation needed. "Ranking" in plain English is practically synonymous with sorting, and it's no different in computing, unless you're in some very specialized pocket where they've twisted it. The difference is that it's possible to show different posts first within the same set and IMO that's not particularly problematic. What's problematic is when Facebook selects a different set. Those posts I didn't ask for shouldn't just be at the bottom of the list; they shouldn't be on it.

In an infinite-scroll world these phases do get interleaved a bit. Query, sort, show top N, repeat. Some posts might get dropped in the "show top N" part, but the point is that those posts I didn't ask for should never even have come back from the first query. In SQL terms, it's the WHERE that's broken, not the ORDER BY or LIMIT. (Yes, I know it's not SQL. I could tell you exactly what it is, but I'm still bound by a legal document that says I shouldn't.) It's really not that subtle or unusual a distinction, and I'm sure most people understood it. Why are you so invested in a weird definition?

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern with gating for votes in America is that America specifically has a very long history of gating voting in order to disenfranchise minorities from voting. We cannot trust our institutions not to use any restrictions to vote in a racist way. Without this, I can easily imagine a world where our existing disenfranchisement of minorities makes them uniquely vulnerable to being unable to acquire the education ne…

The problem with this argument is that racists historically used every system in order to be racist. Should we eliminate public schools, because we still to this day provide less funding for schools in black neighborhoods? What about the Post Office, which was still segregated as recently as the 20th century? If we can't trust politicians not to implement policies in a racist fashion, don't we then have to eliminate…

The property tax system of funding schools is not a good system, but it's also not truly racist. Yes, there are urban schools which are underfunded and disproportionately affect minorities, but there are also rural schools in predominately white areas that are also underfunded. Look to much of Appalachia and some of the south as examples. So in my opinion, property tax funding of schools would fit more with the "rich get richer" paradigm.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#435
post #412
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> One. Wearing Mask can be uncomfortable, and it is real downside (at least for me) >> I'm sorry. Grow up. I wear a mask 8 hours a day. Surgeons do for longer. Is it really that much to ask? I honestly don't understand this mindset. > Its fine for you doesn't mean its fine for other. Not everyone the same. Whether its too much or not can be different for different people. Its not hard to understand right? Some peop…

I didn't says decision and action can't have real consequences. Every action will have its consequences. Forcing other to wear mask has its consequences too.

> Forcing other to wear mask has its consequences too.

As you've said before, people like you would be forced to wear something you think is uncomfortable. I'd even be forced to play the world's smallest violin for you.

The thing is, you have to weigh those consequences (ideally non selfishly), not just assert they exist.

So, one the one hand, you have minor inconvenience and intolerable oppression of having to think of others for even a second. On the other hand, you have hundreds of thousands of avoidable deaths and the economic toll of a poorly-managed pandemic.

I don't know, seems like a tough call. /s

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this argument is that racists historically used every system in order to be racist. Should we eliminate public schools, because we still to this day provide less funding for schools in black neighborhoods? What about the Post Office, which was still segregated as recently as the 20th century? If we can't trust politicians not to implement policies in a racist fashion, don't we then have to eliminate…

The property tax system of funding schools is not a good system, but it's also not truly racist. Yes, there are urban schools which are underfunded and disproportionately affect minorities, but there are also rural schools in predominately white areas that are also underfunded. Look to much of Appalachia and some of the south as examples. So in my opinion, property tax funding of schools would fit more with the "rich…

You could say the same thing about literacy requirements. That's kind of the point.

> Yes, there are urban schools which are underfunded and disproportionately affect minorities, but there are also rural schools in predominately white areas that are also underfunded.

You could presumably also find some instances of so-called "white trash" being disenfranchised by aggressive voter eligibility requirements.

> So in my opinion, property tax funding of schools would fit more with the "rich get richer" paradigm.

All of racism fits into that paradigm. Racism is a system for causing poor black folks and poor white folks to fight against each other instead of fighting with each other against the systems oppressing both of them.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#437
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an interesting point insofar as the second and third sentence seem to contradict each other. Am I over-simplifying? It's not a contradiction. For instance: maybe you have an specialist (a consensus epidemiologist) that says if we don't do A, B, and C, then N thousand people will die. Maybe you have another specialist (an consensus economist) that says if we do those things, it will cost the economy M billio…

I was thinking of specialists within the same specialty disagreeing. Read that way it is a contradiction but it’s now clear that’s not what you meant. I feel the point still stands! When I read your first reply I hadn’t considered specialists in different specialties disagreeing on the same problem or issue. But that seems to further bolster my point, at least as it relates to the distance between common sense and sp…

> I was thinking of specialists within the same specialty disagreeing.

That's a thing too, which I was trying to get at with my comment about fringe specialists. But it's not like every specialty is homogeneous (especially true in something like economics), so decision makers may need to choose between one camp or another of some specialty.

The thing I was arguing against was the now prevalent behavior of dismissing any specialist view that contradicts what you would have done in the first place. Common people should have a say in a democracy, but if that democracy is going to function, those common people need to understand the limits of their knowledge and understanding, which means they need to respect the knowledge and understanding of specialists.

I want to go back to something I forgot to respond to earlier:

>>> A translation of what I expressed above is that common people have common sense and that common sense inoculates us from misinformation. It’s an imperfect response, but effective.

I used to think that too, but I think that's turning out to be far, far less true than anyone would have hoped. That's proven by how prevalent and influential misinformation and disinformation have shown to be. For instance, by the support of totally baseless claims of election fraud by an alarming fraction of Republican party officials [1], which in my view is substantially driven by the influence those claims have on the Republican party base. I say that as someone who's leaned to the right for the past 20 years.

[1] See: "17 Republican Attorneys General Back Trump in Far-Fetched Election Lawsuit" (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/us/politics/trump-texas-s...) "Two reasons the Texas election case is faulty: flawed legal theory and statistical fallacy." (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/10/technology/texas-election...)

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern with gating for votes in America is that America specifically has a very long history of gating voting in order to disenfranchise minorities from voting. We cannot trust our institutions not to use any restrictions to vote in a racist way. Without this, I can easily imagine a world where our existing disenfranchisement of minorities makes them uniquely vulnerable to being unable to acquire the education ne…

If we can't trust our institutions, then what is the solution? There doesn't have to be much education to pass this test. A small book with the material could be mailed to each person on request with no charge. Crafting a strong ammendment with protections like this could address those concerns.

This I don't particularly mind if a small book with the material is provided to each person on request with no charge, potentially even at the point of voting. The point after all is to ensure that maximum numbers of people participating are aware of the systems, not as a gating mechanism.

I'm merely protesting the use of a gating mechanism in isolation. If the gating mechanism came with an educational booklet then my concerns evaporate.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The property tax system of funding schools is not a good system, but it's also not truly racist. Yes, there are urban schools which are underfunded and disproportionately affect minorities, but there are also rural schools in predominately white areas that are also underfunded. Look to much of Appalachia and some of the south as examples. So in my opinion, property tax funding of schools would fit more with the "rich…

You could say the same thing about literacy requirements. That's kind of the point. > Yes, there are urban schools which are underfunded and disproportionately affect minorities, but there are also rural schools in predominately white areas that are also underfunded. You could presumably also find some instances of so-called "white trash" being disenfranchised by aggressive voter eligibility requirements. > So in my…

"All of racism fits into that paradigm. Racism is a system for causing poor black folks and poor white folks to fight against each other instead of fighting with each other against the systems oppressing both of them."

Your statement contradicts itself. If in fact the oppressors are targeting both white and black people to maintain power, then they are by definition not targeting only one race and would instead be classist/elitist.

Also, not all racism is about people getting richer. Some of it was done on their (misguided) principles without financial benefit, or even to their detriment as the civil rights movement grew.

I fail to see how the citizenship test would lead to the rich getting richer.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#440
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fine for you doesn't mean its fine for other. Not everyone the same. Whether its too much or not can be different for different people. Its not hard to understand right?

> Its fine for you doesn't mean its fine for other. True. I mentioned that disease which causes actual pain. That is a legitimate reason. However If your reasoning is "It's uncomfortable" you are being ridiculously childish, and risking the lives of others. I literally cannot understand the "I would rather risk killing someone than having this piece of cloth on my face for a few hours" mindset. EDIT: Spelling (that -…

>That is a legitimate reasons

So you get to decide which are legitimate and which are not?

>If your reasoning is "It's uncomfortable" you are being ridiculously childish, and risking the lives of others.

Likewise, I can also says your decision to force other to wear mask is childish.

You also get to decide what childish and what is not?

>I literally cannot understand the "I would rather risk killing someone than having this piece of cloth on my face for a few hours" mindset.

The risk always exist whatever you do but the chance of that happening is very very low. Not 0, anything can happen, but very low.

Driving car in the road has non zero risk of killing people too but we do it anyway.

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