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We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

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371–380 of 520 posts

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree actually, and would go a step further and suggest that citizenship should be a requirement to vote in any election, and that persons born in the US should not be granted citizenship without being able to pass the citizenship test. I'm less comfortable granting people a bid based on general knowledge and intelligence though, I think the uninterested citizenry is a far larger problem than the uneducated…

My concern with gating for votes in America is that America specifically has a very long history of gating voting in order to disenfranchise minorities from voting. We cannot trust our institutions not to use any restrictions to vote in a racist way. Without this, I can easily imagine a world where our existing disenfranchisement of minorities makes them uniquely vulnerable to being unable to acquire the education ne…

If we can't trust our institutions, then what is the solution?

There doesn't have to be much education to pass this test. A small book with the material could be mailed to each person on request with no charge. Crafting a strong ammendment with protections like this could address those concerns.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#372

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

Do you oppose health warnings on cigarettes? Food labels? Independent testing and verification of air and water? Safety testing for appliances and vehicles?

In your informed consumer advocacy, is there any room for shared responsibility?

What chance do individuals have against a corporate juggernaut's finely tuned outrage machine, exquisitely crafted to prey on human fallibility?

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Sure, we've always had propaganda.

What's new with social media, like with personal computers and smart phones, is the convergence.

Now all the social pathologies (targeted ads, dopamine hits, crowd out authentic speech) are bundled together and monetized, begetting a positive feedback loop.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#373

This is absurd. Just stop using Facebook yourself. It's by far the most democratic reaction you can have. Arguing for bringing in the use of government violence against them is unethical to the point of being evil.

Google owning youtube is an example of a real problem with monopolies.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#374

America is and has always been predicated on the idea that the ordinary person has the capacity to make decisions that guide the republic, either as elector or elected. This idea is the basis of all democracies, generally. Whenever I read that people “aren’t educated” enough or are “unduly influenced” by media, e.g., newspapers, television, or social media, I like to remind myself of this. I notice that there is, and…

> America is and has always been predicated on the idea that the ordinary person has the capacity to make decisions that guide the republic, either as elector or elected. This idea is the basis of all democracies, generally....

> I’ve come to know many politicians in the past few years, some of them nationally prominent. And I can say without hesitation that the average person is as qualified to make decisions about governance as the average professional politician.

The idea that Facebook is bad for democracy doesn't contradict that idea. For anyone to make good decisions, they need good information, and the problem with Facebook is that it amplifies lies and disinformation.

> I notice that there is, and maybe always has been, a vocal group of people who believe that we should only elect and appoint experts, highly-trained specialists in their area of government. Heinlein reminds us that “specialization is for insects”.

I don't think that's what being advocated for. What specialists are good at is providing accurate information in their specialty. Often different specialists will disagree.

In many cases, democracy should be about the people choosing which specialists to listen to and where the balance will be between them when they conflict. It shouldn't be about ordinary people trying to replace specialists (e.g. lets have a vote of non-engineers to determine how big the support beams for the new bridge should be).

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#375

This person is confusing ranked newsfeeds with free speech. Ranked newsfeeds are the actual poison, because they are their own form of censorship and amplification for exploitative purposes. It’s fine if someone says something horrible or false on the internet, it’s not fine if a ranked newsfeed amplifies that message to millions of people because it’s engaging. This free speech or not argument is a complete straw ma…

I don't think it's really ranked newsfeeds. It's also newsfeeds that pull in stuff you didn't specifically express an interest in. It starts with showing you stuff your friends merely liked or commented on, but didn't repost. Then it's things that they merely looked at, and groups that overlap with ones you're already in. Then posts that share some arbitrary characteristic with those you've read or liked. And so on.…

> I don't think it's really ranked newsfeeds.

That's .... a kind of ranking. Personalized ranking made by algorithms based on what they want to show you using their own patterns is still ranking. Dynamically adjusting ranking based on new data (or not) is still ranking.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#376
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is HUGE, and this is why I do not buy the idea that you can get such percentage of votes because of some evil state actor who posts ads on facebook, with independent press, TV, all being available and popular as well. If some party got 30% of votes in Germany, stop blaming facebook and 'state actors'. Germans are better then this, they are not zombies, and they have a lot of information sources to pick up news/op…

> Germans are better then this If they're voting for the Nazis again, maybe they're not better than this.

OK, agree. But then, don't shift the blame to 'malicious state actor'. This is their decision and they own it in full.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#377

What a bizarre set of beliefs and claims. 1. That Facebook is maliciously and mostly singlehandedly responsible for the death of the newspaper and journalism. Except newspaper readership has been on the decline since the 90's. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/01/circulation... - the article frames Facebook's grand plan as taking money from newspapers, but Facebook's revenues in 2019 were nearly twice wha…

> That Facebook is maliciously and mostly singlehandedly responsible for the death of the newspaper and journalism.

The mistake here is in blaming Facebook in particular when it was really the internet in general.

Ironically what really happened here is basically the opposite of the premise. You used to have local media monopolies, or at least sufficiently concentrated local media markets that the players were making ad money hand over fist. Then they used some of that money to pay for local reporting.

The internet leveled the ad market. No longer did you need to buy advertising from the local Los Angeles media outlets to reach customers in Los Angeles. You could still buy it from them, but also Facebook, Google, Apple, a million independent blogs aggregated by third party ad networks, national media outlets that now allow you target adds to specific regions or demographics instead of having to buy nationwide ads etc.

It dramatically increased competition for ad space, which lowered prices and thereby grew the size of the market (Jevon's paradox) but made it so that the incumbents weren't making as much money as they used to because the price for a given amount of advertising fell as a result of increased competition.

> That "monopolism" is rampant and anti-democratic.

This is the part that's actually true. Democracy requires the free exchange of ideas. A handful of oligarchs deciding what people see is the opposite of that.

To give two examples from the recent election, there is some decent evidence that Twitter and Facebook suppressed a negative story about one of the candidates prior to the election as "Russian disinformation" even though it appears to be true, and there have been claims that social media sites showed voting reminders to users on a partisan basis, skewing voter turnout.

> it sure is an curious turn of phrase that there are "endless numbers of monopolists" in healthcare.

This is pretty obviously the case. Healthcare is not a single market, individual products in healthcare are. If you're diabetic you need insulin and can't substitute an SSRI. If you have severe allergies you need epinephrine and can't substitute acetaminophen.

It's frequently the case that the individual markets are controlled by one or two players, not just because of patents but also regulatory burdens that constrain new entrants etc.

> The thread of conversation implies that breaking up Facebook will somehow help, for example, the decline of the newspaper industry.

Breaking up Facebook et al could help the anti-democratic concentration of influence over the political discourse. A larger number of entities would reduce the influence of any one of them and increase the availability of a diversity of viewpoints.

It might even help local news reporting, if Facebook et al were sufficiently atomized, because smashing them into tiny pieces could mean that each city has one or more independent local Facebook which uses some of its revenues to fund local news reporting.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really ranked newsfeeds. It's also newsfeeds that pull in stuff you didn't specifically express an interest in. It starts with showing you stuff your friends merely liked or commented on, but didn't repost. Then it's things that they merely looked at, and groups that overlap with ones you're already in. Then posts that share some arbitrary characteristic with those you've read or liked. And so on.…

> I don't think it's really ranked newsfeeds. That's .... a kind of ranking. Personalized ranking made by algorithms based on what they want to show you using their own patterns is still ranking. Dynamically adjusting ranking based on new data (or not) is still ranking.

As anyone who has worked with databases probably knows (definitely should know), selection and ordering/ranking are two different things.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#379

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

I agree but it is important to understand the psychological need to have your biases confirmed and your prejudices reinforced often overrides all logic and reasoning.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#380
post #358
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not everyone are the same. For example, regarding covid, for some people they think the risk is low, for some people they think the risk are high. Some think the lockdown are worth it, some think the lockdown are not worth it. Both are correct,it highly depends on your personal preference. This will always cause conflict. This is democracy, both side will fight and to convince other. Whoever gain the m…

> This is democracy, both side will fight and to convince other. Whoever gain the majority/power is the winner. > Unless facebook taking sides, i don't think it harm democracy. Both side too can utilize facebook for their advantage. The problem is, for the most part, there's harm to democracy if no compromise is ever reached, and the "fight" on every issue becomes constant and intractable. For instance, the fight aro…

I think The fight is inevitable. Eventually winner will emerge, democracy doesn't care who the winners is and how it get there as long as both side still allowed to fight.

Even to reach compromise, fight may still be necessary.

>You have people refusing to wear masks for the most mart to just to say "fuck you" to the other side.

Mask has real downside (for some people), you can't just dismissed that (not just to say fuck you), although there is of course people like that.

Similarly, You have to acknowledge there also people who want to force other to wear mask to just to say "fuck you" to the otherside.

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