A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM • Hacker News Board

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#181

Post by simonh » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

piokoch wrote: post #131

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

"Current PCs can last for decades" this might not sound as an advantage for PC computer producers. Surely they would prefer mobile devices model in which many people switch device every 2 years. I bet there are some higher ups in Dell, HP counting how wonderful it would be to force people to switch to the new model more often. Or maybe even sell hardware subscription. This would be terrible for the environment, but w…

Tim Cook on an earnings call, explaining that reducing the price of battery refurbishment to $29, lead to fewer sales as people held on to devices for longer:

>According to Cook, while analysts suggested Apple shouldn't do it, the company "strongly believes it was the right thing to do for [its] customers."

https://www.macrumors.com/2019/01/29/apple-lower-upgrades-ex...

>“We also make sure to design durable products, that last as long as possible,” Lisa Jackson, Apple’s vice president of environment, said. “That means long-lasting hardware, coupled with our amazing software. Because they last longer, you can keep using them. And keeping using them is the best thing for the planet.”

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvap85/dont-buy-an-iphone-xs

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#182

Post by sradman » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #2

In case you are wondering didn't they already have this: they had 32-bit emulation, not 64-bit emulation.

And macOS Catalina deprecated 32-bit apps which set the stage for a pure 64-but Rosetta 2 emulator for the M1. The 32-bit deprecation makes more sense now.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#183

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #123

oblio wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know in what kind of circles you mingle, but the software engineers I know that are working on ERPs are VEEEERY different to the ones that are working in FAANGS and startups. Think (Notepad++ and JDeveloper) vs (vim/emacs and cargo). And as far as enterprise IT, there are a ton of Windows infrastructure folks, and again, there's little overlap between those and FAANG types. Plus infrastructure folks frequentl…

I think you’re being a bit judgemental and overly stereotyping people here. In any case, the reason enterprise adopts these technologies isn’t directly because of a technical ROI. It’s because giving people the tools that they want to use is generally seen as beneficial. Providing good UX to internal users is becoming just as trendy in enterprise as DevSecOps and Service Oriented Architecture is. There’s plenty of fa…

I bet it is an US bank.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#184

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

bfgoodrich wrote: post #166

pjmlp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on HN bubble does it matter. Apple devices are out of budget for most countries, and they only own 10% of the worldwide market share in computing. Outside desktop, Android owns the mobile market. Really, it is just US analysts going crazy with M1.

HN's "bubble"? Absurd. We are talking about the most valuable company in the world, and the M1 release was covered enthusiastically the world over. The notion that it's US-only is absolutely preposterous. Apple is a significant player in mobile in the entirety of the West. Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands. And it's PC saturation is virtually the same in Canada and Europe as the US. Even in Euro…

Please list tier 2 and tier 3 countries where there is a significant market share of Apple hardware.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#185

Post by shawnz » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #179

shawnz wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap is relative. Right now their M1 devices are objectively the cheapest practical ARM64 workstation products on the market. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to maintain that lead for a while as costs come down for ARM64 workstations in general. And I think it is reasonable to expect that ARM64 platforms will eventually be cheaper than x86 ones.

Cheap is not that relative when you're poor. When your making an effort to buy an $400 laptop Apple is out of the equation. I know because I've been in that place.

When you are making an effort to buy a $400 laptop than any flagship product from any vendor is out of the question. $400 products are not what define the future landscape of the market.

I am not trying to say that the entire impoverished world is going to go out and start buying Macbooks because of the M1. What I am saying is that practical ARM64 workstations are now a lot more plausible at every price point because of what the M1 demonstrated.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#186

Post by xmodem » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

buran77 wrote: post #174

Hamuko wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has no interest in making it easy to run other OSes I'm not convinced that this is necessarily true. They advertised running Linux VMs during their presentation, they made a tool specifically for installing Windows on Macs and they even recently stated how Windows on ARM Macs is really up to Microsoft. If you could run Windows on an M1 Mac, it'd really turn it into a powerful and power-efficient "do-it-all" m…

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another. Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable , not "interlayerable" . You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC…

Untrue, Apple does permit you to replace your kernel on Apple Silicon macs. Hector Martin has a Patreon where you can sponsor and follow his work towards making Linux usable on these systems: https://www.patreon.com/marcan

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#187

Post by buran77 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #177

buran77 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another. Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable , not "interlayerable" . You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC…

Bootcamp is not virtualization, so your point is moot.

Friend, the comment I replied to referenced Linux in VMs, and my point is clear and was made in good faith: Today I cannot reasonably run any Apple device without the Apple base software.

Your answer is dismissive and misses the point because you nitpicked on one particular word I used that doesn't fulfill one particular and currently irrelevant scenario: Windows in Bootcamp. What about every other scenario?

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#188

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #65

oblio wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPads are very limited, functionality wise. You barely have multiple windows. You can't really plug peripherals in. RAM is really limited. Etc. _______________________________________ Also, HA HA. I've checked and I was right. As far as I can see the cheapest one is $329, BUT with 32GB of storage, which is absolutely ridiculous in 2020. 128GB costs $449, and even that's barely enough storage. The keyboard is $159 (!)…

I haven't seen an $400 laptop you can upgrade the memory for. Perhaps they exist, but I've never seen one. The $250-300 chromebooks are much weaker than an iPad. I don't know if you've noticed, but Apple did release iPhone SE2 which is an almost-flagship at medium price. An iPad with a slightly different iOS and a cheaper than $129 keyboard (there are $50 bluetooh keyboards that work with the iPad, not by apple, that…

My Asus 1215B, came with 4GB, I have upgraded it to 8GB, 300 euros was its selling price 10 years ago, bundled with a Linux distribution.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#189

Post by neogodless » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

rusticpenn wrote: post #59

lars-b2018 wrote: post #41

I think the bigger story here is that computing based on ARM64 has been, and continues to, surround the traditional x86-64 territory. ARM dominates phones, and is popping up in server environments as well, where it is cheaper to run for many workloads than X86-64. We have migrated to ARM based Gravitron processors to deliver our services at my company, and we have been able to reduce our AWS EC2 costs by 40% or so, w…

I do not understand why ARM is considered lesser technology. RISC was always considered to be better then CISC in many academic circles.

This is a dynamic evaluation. Right now, ARM is a far superior technology to x86 for my smartphone use cases, and x86 is a massively superior technology for my high-detail PC gaming use cases.

(It's split for things like development, now that the M1 is here. Personally I get my development done with 8-core 4+ Ghz x86 chips in Windows/WSL2/Docker, but others are getting development done with Apple Silicon M1 ARM chips!)

Over time the "lesser" technology can become the greater technology for more use cases.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#190

Post by buran77 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

xmodem wrote: post #186

buran77 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another. Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable , not "interlayerable" . You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC…

Untrue, Apple does permit you to replace your kernel on Apple Silicon macs. Hector Martin has a Patreon where you can sponsor and follow his work towards making Linux usable on these systems: https://www.patreon.com/marcan

That's great, let's wait and see when this actually happens and if it turns into a compelling alternative. I think Apple hit it out of the park with their ARM line so I'd love to use the hardware with an OS of my choosing, like I would historically on a standard PC.