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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#41

Post by lars-b2018 »

I think the bigger story here is that computing based on ARM64 has been, and continues to, surround the traditional x86-64 territory. ARM dominates phones, and is popping up in server environments as well, where it is cheaper to run for many workloads than X86-64. We have migrated to ARM based Gravitron processors to deliver our services at my company, and we have been able to reduce our AWS EC2 costs by 40% or so, with almost the same performance. The M1 based Macs certainly show the potential on the desktop. Other vendors will produce better, more competitive desktop power level chips, too, that are completely adequate for desktop computing experiences.

We are seeing the classic Innovator's Dilemma pattern whereby the lesser technology slowly overtakes the more brittle incumbent tech. x86 did the same with minicomputers, and then mainframe type workloads.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#42

Post by AmericanChopper »

oblio wrote: post #19
codeulike wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

Totally agreed. I'd also want to add something for this: > Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. Besides the fact, which many HN users working for FAANGS or startups don't encounter, that big enterprises are both rigid and also quite locked into the Microsoft/Windows/Office mono culture, big companies tend to hav…

I’ve contracted in lots of large enterprise, and software engineers who prefer (and are provisioned) Macs are everywhere. I’ve even seen a number of .NET teams who bootcamp with them. I’m contracting in a reasonably large bank right now, and most of the people in my office use MacBooks.

It’s true that large enterprise is slow and cumbersome. But they really don’t care too much if they’re buying you a MacBook, or a surface, or a Dell. Their main concern is whether they can properly manage all their devices, which isn’t too hard to do these days. Whether a large enterprise has MacBooks or not depends a lot more on whether or not they’ve figured out how to use JAMF than it does anything else.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#43

Post by Hamuko »

emilsedgh wrote: post #7

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

>What are their options?

Well, selling Windows for ARM to non-OEMs would be a good start. Apple could then allow for Bootcamp on their new ARM Macs.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#45

Post by Hamuko »

londons_explore wrote: post #6
Tepix wrote: post #3

This makes Windows on Apple M1 devices more attractive. I wonder when Microsoft will take up Apple on their offer to create a bootable OS for their hardware.

If I was Microsoft, I would be very reluctant to support Windows on M1 Macs. The obvious disadvantage is the consumer will get Mac OSX for free with the hardware, and won't be too keen to pay much more to Microsoft. Apple will end up earning most of the revenue. The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of dee…

They don't need to "support" Windows on ARM Macs. They just need to open up the licensing model so that users can buy Windows for ARM from Microsoft and install it via Bootcamp. Apple has already stated that they "have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications".

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#46

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

emilsedgh wrote: post #7

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Looking at their past actions, Apple will do everything, legally and technically, to prevent Microsoft or anyone else from "commoditizing" not only their hardware but also software. Yes you can build a hackintosh yourself, but if you try to sell it, Apple will intervene. Also, technically there is no problem with running macOS on VMware, but you need a patch like Unlocker specifically for that purpose. Their money comes from a high level of control, they won't give it away without a fight.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#48

Post by oblio »

beagle3 wrote: post #33
oblio wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of deep integration, lower performance CPU's, lower profit margins, less R&D, etc. If volumes of sales drop too, it could trigger a cascade effect (fewer sales causes less R&D causes less desirable products causes fewer sales). That could kill consumer PC's entirely,…

I expect them to have an iPad that can fill this niche for $400 when you include a keyboard. Perhaps they already do.

iPads are very limited, functionality wise. You barely have multiple windows. You can't really plug peripherals in. RAM is really limited. Etc.

_______________________________________

Also, HA HA. I've checked and I was right. As far as I can see the cheapest one is $329, BUT with 32GB of storage, which is absolutely ridiculous in 2020. 128GB costs $449, and even that's barely enough storage. The keyboard is $159 (!). So the minimum usable laptop replacement from them costs $610, and I'm probably missing some accesories you need and which probably increase the price even further.

Let alone the fact that for the rest of the world Apple products are 10-20-30% more expensive. So this combo probably costs €700 ($800+) in Europe.

Bait and switch.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#49

Post by pjmlp »

emilsedgh wrote: post #7

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Only on HN bubble does it matter.

Apple devices are out of budget for most countries, and they only own 10% of the worldwide market share in computing.

Outside desktop, Android owns the mobile market.

Really, it is just US analysts going crazy with M1.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#50

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

orra wrote: post #37
Rexxar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Intel claims valid somewhere ? They are probably not in Europe where patents generally cannot be used to prevent interoperability.

> patents generally cannot be used to prevent interoperability I think you're thinking of copyright? Where reverse engineering is allowed for interoperability.

No, it's patent-law, not copyright law. Interestingly while the US has Fair Use (which is an open-ended legal defence), I don't think any countries in the EU (or "Western Europe" if Brexit happens) have anything beyond the closed and enumerated "Fair Dealing" defence).
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