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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

141–150 of 418 posts

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#141
post #55

So does this mean I can run GOG games on my Raspberry PI ? (Asking a stupid question here)

If the Raspberry Pi is running Windows and the games you want to play were compiled for x86_64 or ARM, yes. The emulation will allow software that was only compiled for x86_64 to run on ARM.

In theory I can play old games on it, like Daggerfall.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#142
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

Totally agreed. I'd also want to add something for this: > Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. Besides the fact, which many HN users working for FAANGS or startups don't encounter, that big enterprises are both rigid and also quite locked into the Microsoft/Windows/Office mono culture, big companies tend to hav…

Second that. Can I have Apple serviceman in 4 hours at my doors after I call that something is broken? Will that serviceman arrive with the new computer just in case the old one cannot be repaired? Dell, etc. has that and this is something IT in every company wants.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#143
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never claimed that Android vendors aren't facing similar issues. And I think your point just goes to show how easily Apple could turn around the public perception of this issue if they just allowed sideloading.

They never claimed that Android vendors aren't facing similar issues. No, but like many here they couldn't stop bleeting about Apple.

And what is the problem with that? It's a salient example.

Making sure that Apple is represented in an equal and positive light should be a small concern compared to these consumer device privacy issues that affect all vendors.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#144
post #125
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dishwasher doesn't connect to the internet, doesn't have all my passwords and emails, doesn't access my bank accounts and can't spy on me. This is why I don't care how it works.

More importantly, you cannot use a dishwasher to create new things the designers didn't foresee. It's not a general purpose tool but an appliance. That's why the war on general purpose computing is so upsetting: it seeks to turn general purpose tools into appliances.

I think the point is that for the vast number of people, PCs are already appliances.

It isn’t this change that made them into appliances, it was their natural change in usage - as noted by a previous poster.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#145
post #49

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Only on HN bubble does it matter. Apple devices are out of budget for most countries, and they only own 10% of the worldwide market share in computing. Outside desktop, Android owns the mobile market. Really, it is just US analysts going crazy with M1.

What's true to the US and HN "bubble" right now, will be the norm for the rest of the world a few years from now. no?

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#146
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, two main reasons: 1. Innovator's dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma ARM in this case is the underdog, attacking the incumbent x86. It is the lesser tech because it started from "below" (lower value niches not taken by the incumbent which prefers higher profit margins). 2. RISC vs CISC has never been settled. Until Apple (and Amazon super recently) produced their super recent archit…

The reinvention that gave x86 the advantage over (workstation) RISC was OoO execution in the Pentium. It’s a bit silly to think of x86 and ARM as being so different these days. Most x86 code looks a lot like it was produced for a RISC chip and ARM has been gaining some more complex instructions and addressing modes. Academics may have felt that RISC was better than CISC for a long time but I don’t think they were pre…

> Most x86 code looks a lot like it was produced for a RISC chip

Well yes I don't think the x86 BCD instructions are still being used liberally, or AAA, or CONS/SCAS etc

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#147
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you…

> if desktop ARM becomes mainstream things could settle fairly quickly. It's less of a technical problem and more of a "why bother?" problem. This is exactly right, but I fear the incentives have changed and we'll never again see something like the x86/IBM-compatible/Wintel world of "standard" inter-compatible systems. As you say, it's a "why bother?" problem, and no manufacturer will want to bother: Apple has no int…

Microsoft selling Windows to DELL, HP, ... they will not start writing their own operating system. And at that point the same effect will start like it did with Microsoft/Intel/computer manufacturer.

If Microsoft however succeed with their Surfaces like Apples does .. than maybe we are screwed. Luckily, they do not.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#148

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft.

The moat that Win32 provides has been eroding for a long time. That's why Microsoft has shifted their focus to the cloud. This technology might slow things a little but the writing is on the wall.

Most enterprises want to deliver software through a browser, the last thing they want to do is install software on the client. My customers have been telling me this for two decades now. They don't even like having Office run locally, they will drop it as soon as the browser version is viable.

Microsoft will be fine, they appear to be a long way along that journey already. I'm not so sure about Intel though. It's in Microsoft's interest for processors to become a commodity product. They would be over the moon if the competition sucked all the profits out of AMD/Intel.

The people who should be most worried though are the HP/Lenovo/Dells of this world. They have been happy to be carried along on the coat tails of WinTel for decades now. They will struggle to adapt to this new world.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#149
post #126

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

>Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you…

In the 1980s, the IBM PC standardized the entire industry around ISA ("Industry Standard Architecture") which was pushed forward by the manufacturers of IBM-compatible hardware ("clones").

The consortium of like-minded manufacturers later went to help develop develop all the subsequent variants that persist to this day (PCI and ATX form-factor etc). The standardization benefited them greatly.

Now that ARM Holdings is owned by NVidia I hope Jensen Huang sees that if ARM is to take over the desktop it makes sense to bring that same level of standardization that allowed the PC industry (and NVidia) to dominate.

I think ARM Holdings needs to be the one to spearhead the initiative. It will help industry-wide adoption of ARM (for desktops, laptops and servers) which will benefit them greatly.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#150
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand why ARM is considered lesser technology. RISC was always considered to be better then CISC in many academic circles.

Well, two main reasons: 1. Innovator's dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma ARM in this case is the underdog, attacking the incumbent x86. It is the lesser tech because it started from "below" (lower value niches not taken by the incumbent which prefers higher profit margins). 2. RISC vs CISC has never been settled. Until Apple (and Amazon super recently) produced their super recent archit…

>It's also a mix of CISC and RISC, it's not pure CISC now.

It's not. It's microcoded. Like VAX. Which RISC is a response to.

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