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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#21

Post by oblio »

londons_explore wrote: post #6
Tepix wrote: post #3

This makes Windows on Apple M1 devices more attractive. I wonder when Microsoft will take up Apple on their offer to create a bootable OS for their hardware.

If I was Microsoft, I would be very reluctant to support Windows on M1 Macs. The obvious disadvantage is the consumer will get Mac OSX for free with the hardware, and won't be too keen to pay much more to Microsoft. Apple will end up earning most of the revenue. The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of dee…

> The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of deep integration, lower performance CPU's, lower profit margins, less R&D, etc. If volumes of sales drop too, it could trigger a cascade effect (fewer sales causes less R&D causes less desirable products causes fewer sales). That could kill consumer PC's entirely, which would be very bad for the future of Windows.

For this to happen Apple would have to fill in MANY, MANY niches, especially cheaper ones. Apple does not and will not fill those. Well, "never say never", but I don't expect them to sell a $400 laptop, all accessories included (so no sneaky $400 laptop with semi-mandatory accessories which bring the price to $700).

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#22

Post by est31 »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #17

Microsoft are between a rock and a hard place. They've done a very good job maintaining compatibility with windows/DOS x86 programs as hardware and the OS grows, but eventually for windows to survive and be competitive they need to ditch it and do a successful port to the next generation (presumably ARM). This will be challenging and painful for many of their existing users.

The ARM platform is currently massively held back IMO by its lack for standardization. I think there is tremendous value hidden behind a company that achieves a push for consistency. Microsoft has invested tens if not hundreds of thousands of man years in this, so who would be better qualified for this than them.

RISC-V is kinda in a similar situation as ARM. If I were Microsoft, I'd be investing hard into the RISC-V platform as it still has tremendous growth left.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#23

Post by FpUser »

londons_explore wrote: post #6
Tepix wrote: post #3

This makes Windows on Apple M1 devices more attractive. I wonder when Microsoft will take up Apple on their offer to create a bootable OS for their hardware.

If I was Microsoft, I would be very reluctant to support Windows on M1 Macs. The obvious disadvantage is the consumer will get Mac OSX for free with the hardware, and won't be too keen to pay much more to Microsoft. Apple will end up earning most of the revenue. The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of dee…

>"since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of deep integration, lower performance CPU's, lower profit margins, less R&D"

1) Deep integration with what? I do not feel that I am missing anything. So far can do anything I want.

2) What low performance? Depending on money spent desktops and laptops perform just fine. M1 is a good chip but new AMD is faster on single core and on multiple cores it will wipe the floor with M1. So far M1 is more power efficient. I am pretty sure given time AMD/Intel will catch up to that if there is good ROI on that particular quality.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#24

Post by gsnedders »

mtgx wrote: post #4

Are they doing any kind of translation, too, or just pure emulation? Because if they aren't, then Windows will continue to run significantly slower on the already significantly lower-performance third-party Arm chips compared to how macOS runs on the M1. My prediction is 50%-60% of the performance of M1 on the latest/highest-end Qualcomm laptop chip.

Some of the perf gains on the M1 are due to hardware support for TSO (total store ordering), which doesn't exist on the latest/highest-end Qualcomm chip, hence the Windows support needs to insert many more barriers to emulate TSO. This likely has a significant impact on emulated performance.

At least the x86 (32-bit) emulation relied entirely on JIT compiling its emulated code, instead of doing anything AOT. _However_, it cached the JIT'd code so in practice it was a first-run cost, similar to the situation on macOS.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#27

Post by gsnedders »

est31 wrote: post #22
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #17

Microsoft are between a rock and a hard place. They've done a very good job maintaining compatibility with windows/DOS x86 programs as hardware and the OS grows, but eventually for windows to survive and be competitive they need to ditch it and do a successful port to the next generation (presumably ARM). This will be challenging and painful for many of their existing users.

The ARM platform is currently massively held back IMO by its lack for standardization. I think there is tremendous value hidden behind a company that achieves a push for consistency. Microsoft has invested tens if not hundreds of thousands of man years in this, so who would be better qualified for this than them. RISC-V is kinda in a similar situation as ARM. If I were Microsoft, I'd be investing hard into the RISC-V…

> The ARM platform is currently massively held back IMO by its lack for standardization.

Note there is progress there with things like ARM's ServerReady which standardises a lot. The Windows-on-ARM requirements also push a lot to be far more standardised (it effectively requires a subset of the ServerReady requirements AIUI).

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#28

Post by codeulike »

codeulike wrote: post #9
emilsedgh wrote: post #7

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

On the ARM front, MS launched the Surface Pro X last year that runs on an ARM chip they developed with Qualcomm. It is way behind M1 in terms of performance and battery etc but its the same kind of idea - fast ARM based ultraportable with emulation for non-arm apps. So they do at least have a 'dog in the race', even if its a slightly lame dog at this point. I imagine they will be throwing increasingly more resources at ARM in the future.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#29

Post by _ph_ »

londons_explore wrote: post #6
Tepix wrote: post #3

This makes Windows on Apple M1 devices more attractive. I wonder when Microsoft will take up Apple on their offer to create a bootable OS for their hardware.

If I was Microsoft, I would be very reluctant to support Windows on M1 Macs. The obvious disadvantage is the consumer will get Mac OSX for free with the hardware, and won't be too keen to pay much more to Microsoft. Apple will end up earning most of the revenue. The strategic disadvantage is that as windows users move to M1 based macs, sales of PC hardware will drop, since the PC ecosystem is hobbled by a lack of dee…

I see it completely differently: if Microsoft wants Windows on Arm to have a big future, they should push for Windows on the M1 Macs. This would be a showcase, how well Windows can run on ARM, and as Apple machines gain market share push Windows developers to provide ARM-native versions of their software. Windows on ARM so far faced two obstacles, the lack of native software and the lack of great machines.

Having Windows running on ARM Macs could deliver a helpful push here and also keep Windows relevant for Mac users. On the other side, there is no greater risk, as Apple isn't taking over the PC market any time soon. Apple will likely increase their market share, but even then it is just a fraction of the total market.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#30

Post by kzrdude »

est31 wrote: post #22
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #17

Microsoft are between a rock and a hard place. They've done a very good job maintaining compatibility with windows/DOS x86 programs as hardware and the OS grows, but eventually for windows to survive and be competitive they need to ditch it and do a successful port to the next generation (presumably ARM). This will be challenging and painful for many of their existing users.

The ARM platform is currently massively held back IMO by its lack for standardization. I think there is tremendous value hidden behind a company that achieves a push for consistency. Microsoft has invested tens if not hundreds of thousands of man years in this, so who would be better qualified for this than them. RISC-V is kinda in a similar situation as ARM. If I were Microsoft, I'd be investing hard into the RISC-V…

Isn't there more standardization in ARMv8?
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