Live data from Hacker News

A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

11–20 of 418 posts

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#11

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

I don't understand why do they need on AMD/Intel to deliver? Their ARM build is an insurance against this dependency.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#12
post #5

What happened to the patent issues surrounding x86 emulation? For example I remember reading this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel... First Apple and now Microsoft. Do they license the patents from Intel or did they expire? Or are they working around that somehow?

The original x86 patents are expired by now, the x86-64 patents are held by AMD.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#13

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

I don't understand why do they need on AMD/Intel to deliver? Their ARM build is an insurance against this dependency.

s/AMD/ARM ?

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#14

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

Yep.

Folks here don't care, if their Business Software runs whatsoever or is whatsoever faster as long as it is cheap on a per unit basis. There is no such thing as ROI in Excel tables for controllers in my company. ;)

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#15
post #5

What happened to the patent issues surrounding x86 emulation? For example I remember reading this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel... First Apple and now Microsoft. Do they license the patents from Intel or did they expire? Or are they working around that somehow?

The original x86 patents are expired by now, the x86-64 patents are held by AMD.

While that's true, Intel has steadily extended x86 over the years and many programs depend on those extensions, which are still patent protected.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#16
post #4

Are they doing any kind of translation, too, or just pure emulation? Because if they aren't, then Windows will continue to run significantly slower on the already significantly lower-performance third-party Arm chips compared to how macOS runs on the M1. My prediction is 50%-60% of the performance of M1 on the latest/highest-end Qualcomm laptop chip.

The post says "x64 emulation for ARM64 devices" for applications. Windows itself is already native on ARM64. And some apps too: Edge, Photoshop.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/12/10/introdu...

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#17
Microsoft are between a rock and a hard place. They've done a very good job maintaining compatibility with windows/DOS x86 programs as hardware and the OS grows, but eventually for windows to survive and be competitive they need to ditch it and do a successful port to the next generation (presumably ARM).

This will be challenging and painful for many of their existing users.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#18
post #3

This makes Windows on Apple M1 devices more attractive. I wonder when Microsoft will take up Apple on their offer to create a bootable OS for their hardware.

If it does happen no one will use it.

What will happen is Microsoft will introduce a shiny new Surface in a barrage of marketing which rips off most characteristics of the M1 Macbook. It will contain an SoC which is a vaguely rebranded off the shelf one. It'll be entirely held together with glue and tape and receive a 0 rating on iFixit. There will be no support network in most countries other than North America where the support will just be terrible anyway. The software situation will be a shit show universally with bugs, slowdowns and problems galore. All the app vendors will refuse to poke it with a 6 foot long shitty stick. Eventually CTOs will buy a few, they will die within 6 months and be left in a corner in the office until their spicy pillows inflate enough to cause alarm and go in the WEEE bin for recycling. Microsoft will puff up its chest like a pigeon and strut around declaring victory. The outcome of this will be all OEM vendors finding an even cheaper way to shift no brand OEM ARM laptops to the lowest bidders via the retail channel now they don't have to pay Intel any money. They will be stuffed to the brim with crappy user experiences and barely working software while microsoft takes their cut from the windows license as it always has done.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#19

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

Totally agreed. I'd also want to add something for this:

> Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly.

Besides the fact, which many HN users working for FAANGS or startups don't encounter, that big enterprises are both rigid and also quite locked into the Microsoft/Windows/Office mono culture, big companies tend to have very elaborate purchasing processes.

Things with just 1 vendor tend to be completely ignored, if they're meant to be used throughout the company. There is a certain irony with my previous paragraph, but Microsoft stuff is usually grandfathered in, the rules for new acquisitions don't apply to them. On top of that Microsoft has super solid backwards/forwards compatibility, migration paths and an amazing history of working with enterprises, as much as they are hated especially by the Open Source community for other things.

So you can expect ARM Macs to be adopted and used, but most likely frowned upon by IT departments and CIOs if too many people want them. With Intel they can have a bidding process or at least a product comparison between Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. With Apple it's... just Apple. Also Apple's B2B side is super underpowered and their history is very chequered due to their frequent breaking changes.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#20
post #5

What happened to the patent issues surrounding x86 emulation? For example I remember reading this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel... First Apple and now Microsoft. Do they license the patents from Intel or did they expire? Or are they working around that somehow?

Are Intel claims valid somewhere ? They are probably not in Europe where patents generally cannot be used to prevent interoperability.
Post reply on HN