Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint • Hacker News Board

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#31

Post by forest_dweller » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:32 PM UTC

pietrovismara wrote: post #21

yholio wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American gun culture has little to do with this case. Cops behave like this because behind door number one there could be a guy with an assault rifle ready to take them down. In 99% of the cases there isn't, but if you do 100 of these raids without taking risks, it becomes more likely than not that your own children will become orphans. It's hypocritical to attack the cops that (literally) fight to stay alive without…

You just said american gun culture has little to do with this and then you contradict yourself the next sentence. In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. It's also weird that you speak as if being a cop is the most dangerous job when it's not even in the first 10 most dangerous jobs[0]. I never see people that worry about cops lives wor…

> In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them.

Are you stupid enough to actually believe this? My uncle was put in prison for over a decade for robbing banks in the UK. He slept with a shotgun under his pillow (the police found it there when they arrested him).

Believe it or not criminals do have guns in the UK (police confiscate guns all the time), as well as as other weapons which are illegal (swords, machetes, nun-jucks). Recently police raided a warehouse (near where I live) where they were making firearms.

Also I am pretty sure guns were illegal in Northern Ireland as well and plenty of terrorists and criminals had them at the time.

It really annoys me when people try to claim the opposite (or gaslight me) by saying "well they banned all the guns that means that there isn't any" because I know it isn't true.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#32

Post by tslocum » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:32 PM UTC

LockAndLol wrote: post #27

agotterer wrote: post #12

I don’t understand the political motivation here. Let’s say theres actually something to hide. This very public action is certain to have the opposite affect and bring even more attention to Rebekah and her data (Streisand effect).

People don't care. It's one scandal amongst many and people stop keeping track, so they just keep on voting for the same people. Even if there were a website that kept track of all a politician's misdeeds, the majority wouldn't use it or know about it.

Does such a tracker exist now?

I only know of https://senatestockwatcher.com

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#33

Post by zdragnar » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:33 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #3

I'm not sure what the cops think this person did but whatever she was accused of this is an absolutely unacceptable way to handle it in the US.

I dont think I disagree, but isn't this standard practice when there is suspicion that evidence might be destroyed had they just knocked at the door.

They did the same thing to General Flynn, IIRC.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#34

Post by Veen » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:40 PM UTC

forest_dweller wrote: post #31

pietrovismara wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just said american gun culture has little to do with this and then you contradict yourself the next sentence. In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. It's also weird that you speak as if being a cop is the most dangerous job when it's not even in the first 10 most dangerous jobs[0]. I never see people that worry about cops lives wor…

> In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. Are you stupid enough to actually believe this? My uncle was put in prison for over a decade for robbing banks in the UK. He slept with a shotgun under his pillow (the police found it there when they arrested him). Believe it or not criminals do have guns in the UK (police confiscate guns all th…

In the last three years four police officers were killed in the line of duty in the UK. Two by motor vehicles, one by stabbing, and one by gunshot (inside a police station). The gunshot death was the first in eight years and one of seven in the last 20 years. It happens, but it is rare.

In contrast, 44 police officers were shot and killed in 2019 in the US.

(Also, including phrases like "are you stupid" in comments just makes you look foolish)

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#35

Post by yholio » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:41 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #26

yholio wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American gun culture has little to do with this case. Cops behave like this because behind door number one there could be a guy with an assault rifle ready to take them down. In 99% of the cases there isn't, but if you do 100 of these raids without taking risks, it becomes more likely than not that your own children will become orphans. It's hypocritical to attack the cops that (literally) fight to stay alive without…

List of professions more dangerous then being a police officer in 2018 [1]: supervisor of mechanics or repairers, construction, agricultural work, grounds maintenance, electrical line-workers, landscaping supervisors, construction supervisors, steel workers, agricultural managers, sales workers, truck drivers, garbage man, roofers, aircraft pilot, fisherman, logging. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/202…

> "going into dangerous situations" thing - plenty of professions get required to do that (paramedics, firemen) and manage to be both unarmed and not shoot people all the time.

Firemen, in fact, take every precaution they can before going into a blaze, such as flame retardant suits and breathing masks.

A gun does not stop fire and fire does not shoot back at you, nor has any intelligence to work around predictable defenses. A human has that intelligence, so the only way to safely handle an armed man that does not want to cooperate is with extreme, overpowering violence.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#36

Post by forest_dweller » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #34

forest_dweller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. Are you stupid enough to actually believe this? My uncle was put in prison for over a decade for robbing banks in the UK. He slept with a shotgun under his pillow (the police found it there when they arrested him). Believe it or not criminals do have guns in the UK (police confiscate guns all th…

In the last three years four police officers were killed in the line of duty in the UK. Two by motor vehicles, one by stabbing, and one by gunshot (inside a police station). The gunshot death was the first in eight years and one of seven in the last 20 years. It happens, but it is rare. In contrast, 44 police officers were shot and killed in 2019 in the US. (Also, including phrases like "are you stupid" in comments j…

I was specifically responding to the idea that because guns are banned in the Europe that criminals don't have them. I know that isn't true. It is ridiculous to think so.

> (Also, including phrases like "are you stupid" in comments just makes you look foolish)

Making statements like "In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them." is stupid. Where I live (in the midlands outside of the cities) it is non-existant. In London or Manchester it is probably much higher.

Also there is no such thing as an "assault rifle". I not even into firearms and I know the term is bullshit.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#37

Post by yholio » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

pietrovismara wrote: post #21

yholio wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American gun culture has little to do with this case. Cops behave like this because behind door number one there could be a guy with an assault rifle ready to take them down. In 99% of the cases there isn't, but if you do 100 of these raids without taking risks, it becomes more likely than not that your own children will become orphans. It's hypocritical to attack the cops that (literally) fight to stay alive without…

You just said american gun culture has little to do with this and then you contradict yourself the next sentence. In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. It's also weird that you speak as if being a cop is the most dangerous job when it's not even in the first 10 most dangerous jobs[0]. I never see people that worry about cops lives wor…

Yes, american gun culture has little to do with the background of the case: the alleged hacking, the perceived need for a raid etc. We can debate those points, but let's suppose for the sake of argument the cops had no idea if they dealing with a harmless journalist or with Ross Ulbricht, hacker and online drug lord that orders murders.

However, the way the raid has been implemented on the ground is a direct effect of American gun culture, it should have been obvious from the rest of the comment this is what I mean to say, this is the root cause I referred to.

Cops do not create that gun culture, cops do not buy millions of firearms and place them in the hands of civilians, they react to this situation and try to stay alive, as would you, as would anybody in their position.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#38

Post by yholio » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #29

GordonS wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering if this is meant to be satire, but I'll assume not. The cops were sent to the house of a middle-aged scientist who was reporting on COVID data. The idea that you need to charge in with guns is far beyond ludicrous.

The best part is how, if we accept literally all the unjustified precepts of why they went in guns drawn, you then can look at the reasoning and question why, if it's that dangerous, did they go to the house at all? What, this was so time-sensitive that we couldn't pick her up with a traffic stop when she was out of the house? At every conceivable junction, the police create dangerous situations and then use the dang…

> What, this was so time-sensitive that we couldn't pick her up with a traffic stop when she was out of the house?

It is standard operating procedure to catch online criminals in the act, with the computers booted, terminals unlocked and drives unencrypted.

In general, your premise that police should avoid confrontations with (allegedly) very dangerous individuals, and leave them wiggle room to destroy evidence, is untenable. Clearly, this case is an outlier, but the fault lays with whomever ordered the raid without reason, not with police officers themselves, that performed the raid as any raid should be done in a trigger happy country.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#39

Post by XorNot » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #38

XorNot wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best part is how, if we accept literally all the unjustified precepts of why they went in guns drawn, you then can look at the reasoning and question why, if it's that dangerous, did they go to the house at all? What, this was so time-sensitive that we couldn't pick her up with a traffic stop when she was out of the house? At every conceivable junction, the police create dangerous situations and then use the dang…

> What, this was so time-sensitive that we couldn't pick her up with a traffic stop when she was out of the house? It is standard operating procedure to catch online criminals in the act, with the computers booted, terminals unlocked and drives unencrypted. In general, your premise that police should avoid confrontations with (allegedly) very dangerous individuals, and leave them wiggle room to destroy evidence, is u…

That's garbage: almost no crime is so time-sensitive and so unique that this is a problem. Heck look at the take down of Silk Road for example of doing it right: they clearly took their time (despite the impact being obviously greater), and no one had to pull any weapons because the situation was executed in a known safe environment.

Police deserve no leeway for this: the evidence points to repeatedly creating a dangerous situation (by them) and then shooting the person they've decided is dangerous (because they created a situation they thought was dangerous).

If there is not immediate danger to other citizen's lives, it can wait. And most of the time, it should wait because amongst other thing that lets you actually make a plan.

The only difference in this case is "could be dangerous" is being used as pathetically thin cover for ensuring the lives of a political opponent and their family were threatened.

Re: Rebekah Jones' house raided at gunpoint

#40

Post by yholio » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #34

forest_dweller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Europe the risk of having someone greet you with an assault rifle is non-existent, because people just can't buy them. Are you stupid enough to actually believe this? My uncle was put in prison for over a decade for robbing banks in the UK. He slept with a shotgun under his pillow (the police found it there when they arrested him). Believe it or not criminals do have guns in the UK (police confiscate guns all th…

In the last three years four police officers were killed in the line of duty in the UK. Two by motor vehicles, one by stabbing, and one by gunshot (inside a police station). The gunshot death was the first in eight years and one of seven in the last 20 years. It happens, but it is rare. In contrast, 44 police officers were shot and killed in 2019 in the US. (Also, including phrases like "are you stupid" in comments j…

> In contrast, 44 police officers were shot and killed in 2019 in the US.

Police in turn, killed about 999 people. At least about half of the victims were armed with guns* and it stands to reason that a peaceful and unarmed police would have seen even higher causalities.

* https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...