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Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

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Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#211

Post by sneak »

zepto wrote: post #186
sneak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also impossible to use (even for free apps) without IDing yourself, and your travel history (via IP geolocation), to Apple. The convenience comes at a cost.

It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.

Client IP is city-level geolocation. It's sent with every communication to Apple, necessarily, because Apple has not embedded Tor into their OS.

AppleID (which you have stipulated) + timestamp (obvious) + client IP (necessary for a TCP/UDP connection) on inbound App Store requests is travel history, because client IP = city. It's quite simple.

Each time you open the App Store not on a VPN, Apple knows which city that Apple ID holder is in.

Additionally, the App Store sends the device serial number to Apple (per Apple's disclosures), so the device serial number is associated with your Apple ID.

The device maintains a persistent, serial-number-linked connection to Apple at all times (APNS) for receiving push notifications. This device-serial linked connection involves Apple seeing the client IP (and thus city) as well. Because Apple has linked the device serial with your Apple ID via the App Store, the persistent, 24/7 APNS connection allows Apple to track which client IP (and thus city) is in use by which AppleID, in real-time, whenever the device is on and connected.

I would appreciate it if you stop systematically responding negatively to so many of my comments. It feels like a pattern of harassment based on my identity to me, rather than you sincerely engaging with what I have to say.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#212

Post by lern_too_spel »

sneak wrote: post #211
zepto wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.

Client IP is city-level geolocation. It's sent with every communication to Apple, necessarily, because Apple has not embedded Tor into their OS. AppleID (which you have stipulated) + timestamp (obvious) + client IP (necessary for a TCP/UDP connection) on inbound App Store requests is travel history, because client IP = city. It's quite simple. Each time you open the App Store not on a VPN, Apple knows which city that…

Not only that but any time any app gets your meter-accuracy GPS location, Apple also gets it to use for their AGPS service, and (unlike every other AGPS service I've seen) there is no way to turn it off. This information gets sent with an "anonymized" identifier to prevent spoofed requests, but this is easily correlated with the other Apple ID tagged requests they get from the same device.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#213

Post by mrandish »

ubermonkey wrote: post #151

Honestly, the arguments in this series of posts are not strong. I laughed out loud when I got to his complaints about Apple's headphone chips and the ease of pairing they allow -- and how it's somehow unfair that Apple, having developed this competitive advantage, is refusing to share it with other companies. What IS it about Apple that makes a certain class of tech geek feel like they have to dislike them in such a…

Personally, I don't generally choose Apple products for my own use because I tend to prioritize customization, flexibility, cost and a wider range of choices over simplicity, ubiquity, consistency and aesthetics. However, I concede that Apple makes some outstanding hardware and is generally an innovative, well-run company and the world is better for having the company in it. There are many users and use cases for which Apple's offerings are an excellent fit (including my own mother).

Most of my personal usage concerns are around the software and content areas where the user types and use cases Apple tends to prioritize aren't a good fit for my needs. For example, the focus in iOS on content consumption and app-snacking vs flexible content authoring and application depth (speaking-broadly here, as there are certainly notable counter-examples).

From a meta-perspective, as a long-time software-centric serial entrepreneur, I feel the long-term, net impacts on the market of Apple's app and content business models is, at-best, mixed for third-party developers. It can be excellent for very large developers with established brands and/or customer bases as well as the single-digit percentage of app developers that score a mega-hit. It can also be a good deal for small part-time devs that just want to get started quickly and don't necessarily need to count on consistent long-term revenue to make a house payment or employee payroll.

The app store model introduced a different set of trade-offs for developers because Apple retains certain significant value components for themselves such as the direct customer relationship, finely-grained control of distribution, some promotion avenues, margins and available business models. They also force certain requirements on developers. I agree that some of these requirements are also net benefits for users (eg privacy, compatibility, etc). However, they are also differentiators for Apple's offerings and enablers of Apple's extraordinary business model success.

Unlike some others, I don't believe Apple is guilty of being a monopoly (as defined by regulatory agencies) and don't see Apple's strategy as even especially predatory or deceptive. Sure, it's boldly aggressive and perhaps lopsided in Apple's favor, at least as compared to the Wintel proposition before it. But it's not fundamentally immoral, unethical or illegal. Certainly, the net effects and trade-offs of the app store value proposition to developers (and users) should be well-understood by now. If it's not a good fit, developers (or customers) should evaluate alternatives and respond appropriately depending on their preferences, context, requirements and priorities.

Finally, I think the difference between my viewpoint and that of Apple's biggest fans or harshest critics is more a matter of subjective value-judgements and perspective than objective right vs wrong. For example, I'm probably influenced by personally benefiting from valuation increases based on having durable customer relationships and diverse distribution channels.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#214

Post by fsflover »

zepto wrote: post #208
fsflover wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and I said that we have more than just two choices, i.e., stopping Apple does not force you to buy Android.

Yes, but it does force people not to buy what they want. Adding another alternative doesn’t change that.

If you want Apple then an alternative will indeed not help you. If you don't want Android then the alternative provides an opportunity not to be forced into Android.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#215

Post by lern_too_spel »

sjs382 wrote: post #209
john_minsk wrote: post #28

I just paid for 12 months worth of Skype subscription which I have used for just 2 calls back in January. I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it…

> Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it refusing to accept discount or a free subscription. SAME. Somewhere deep in my comment history here, I tell the story of trying to cancel NYT, and needing to do it three t…

I had the same problem and contacted my state representative and my congressperson. This has since been fixed by regulation in California, and by having to follow California's laws, most companies' subscription services have been fixed for everybody.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#216

Post by lern_too_spel »

duhi88 wrote: post #159
ubermonkey wrote: post #151

Honestly, the arguments in this series of posts are not strong. I laughed out loud when I got to his complaints about Apple's headphone chips and the ease of pairing they allow -- and how it's somehow unfair that Apple, having developed this competitive advantage, is refusing to share it with other companies. What IS it about Apple that makes a certain class of tech geek feel like they have to dislike them in such a…

They're not the underdog anymore, they're very profitable, they make lukewarm claims for headlines that fall apart under scrutiny (the kind of scrutiny that tech geeks are all about), and in recent history have acted pretty badly towards developers. All that said, after building a Linux machine for development and general client work, I consider Macs the best option out there. Everything from being able to copy 2FA c…

On Android, I can transparently use a third party messaging service that also delivers phone calls and messages to my computers. I don't even need my phone with me to do what rendezvous does. This just isn't possible on iOS due to its restrictions on APIs available to third parties.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#217

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #214
zepto wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it does force people not to buy what they want. Adding another alternative doesn’t change that.

If you want Apple then an alternative will indeed not help you. If you don't want Android then the alternative provides an opportunity not to be forced into Android.

Sure, but as I said, that’s not what this thread was about.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#218

Post by zepto »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #210
zepto wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.

As you have been repeatedly informed, that data is very easy to deanonymize. The last time you were told this, you then made the wacky claim that the data isn't sent to Apple at all. After being shown that it was, you just went on your way only to repeat the original lie again. I have not seen sneak be repeatedly pointed out that his statement is incorrect. That is a lie. He is completely correct, which is why he has…

No, both of you are lying.

I claimed your location wasn’t sent, because it isn’t. An anonymous location is being sent.

You claim it’s possible they could de-anonymize the location.

That may or not be true.

Claiming that they are de-anonymizing the data when you know you have no evidence to support the claim, is a lie.

If you or he can prove Apple is de-anonymizing location data to track people’s individual travel history, I will retract this statement and apologize.

You cannot, because there is no proof.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#219

Post by zepto »

sneak wrote: post #211
zepto wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that you must identify yourself to download any app from the App Store. But you continue to repeat this outright lie about Apple receiving your travel history. There is no evidence for it, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. We know if you opt in to certain services they send an anonymized location. That’s all we know. The part about your travel history being sent is 100% made up by you.

Client IP is city-level geolocation. It's sent with every communication to Apple, necessarily, because Apple has not embedded Tor into their OS. AppleID (which you have stipulated) + timestamp (obvious) + client IP (necessary for a TCP/UDP connection) on inbound App Store requests is travel history, because client IP = city. It's quite simple. Each time you open the App Store not on a VPN, Apple knows which city that…

I’m only responding when you make false claims, as you have done here.

You have no proof that Apple is recording people’s travel history, only speculation about how they could be.

It’s a lie to say they are.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#220

Post by sneak »

zepto wrote: post #219
sneak wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Client IP is city-level geolocation. It's sent with every communication to Apple, necessarily, because Apple has not embedded Tor into their OS. AppleID (which you have stipulated) + timestamp (obvious) + client IP (necessary for a TCP/UDP connection) on inbound App Store requests is travel history, because client IP = city. It's quite simple. Each time you open the App Store not on a VPN, Apple knows which city that…

I’m only responding when you make false claims, as you have done here. You have no proof that Apple is recording people’s travel history, only speculation about how they could be. It’s a lie to say they are.

Ahh, I understand you now.

Perhaps that you do not realize that storing client IP logs is standard practice for all internet services, and indeed without special and custom engineering effort is necessary for preventing brute-force attempts and denial of service as well as other types of abuse.

Any system as vast and reliable as APNS or the App Store is logging client IPs (and is thus logging approximate client location).

The data is absolutely being stored.

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