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Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

diem.com

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Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#411

Post by cwkoss »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #43

The whole “unbanked” thing is really unconvincing, because there's no way Libra/Diem will be usable for people who don't have identity documents and the evidence needed for KYC/AML forms, and that excludes most unbanked people. As for international money transfers: TransferWise and the like are already providing better solutions in that space without forcing you to use Facebook Coins. Now you might say that mostly ca…

A bunch of people who bought Oculus Quest 2's are being locked out of their hardware because it requires a Facebook account and they'll automatically close new accounts with low activity (playing Quest doesn't count apparently) - so it seems that if you create a Facebook account purely to use the Quest 2, you'll be locked out if you don't share enough pictures/make enough friends.

I will NEVER use a currency that requires a connection to my facebook account.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#412

Post by ac29 »

tw04 wrote: post #378
tomp wrote: post #56

Ok, so let's focus on the underlying idea, without the "Facebook is trying to rebrand their evil brand" cruft. Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". It could even scale even more to a money store but that'…

> Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". I can send money to friends via PayPal or Venmo completely free. What’s missing?

Its not too fast (from bank account to bank account takes 1-3 days or so). Venmo is also arguably not free, since it contains ads now.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#413

Post by edmundsauto »

cortesoft wrote: post #387
logicchains wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fucking false, stop spreading misinformation. The US experienced continued deflation from ~1870 to ~1890 and still saw a growth rate of around 4%.

So first, you of course picked one of the very few deflationary growth periods in history. Second, that deflationary period was caused by a huge increase in productivity... it is known as "the second industrial revolution", and global production efficiency took off during that period. Third, the fact that there was only 4% actually shows that growth was artificially constrained by a limited money supply; productive e…

Not OP, but they were bringing up a counterpoint to the "absolutely" destroys a nation. The counter example did not destroy the US, proving the original statement false.

Your third point also sounds like story-telling, or fitting a story to the evidence. Does that mean it is the only possible explanation for what occurred? If not, how can we determine which explanation is correct?

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#414

Post by betwixthewires »

oblio wrote: post #394
betwixthewires wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm copying a comment I made earlier that answers this question: So I hate to use the word I'm about to use, because of the modern connotations associated with it, but it does apply here. There are billions of people who are abused by their government, who cannot trust their government, who's local money is debased by their government at a whim. You are privileged (there's that word) to have a government that you fee…

Oh, I forgot something. > whose local money is debased by their government at a whim How do you reconcile this with the wild speculation happening for Bitcoin, the only widely adopted cryptocurrency? It would definitely not be a solid investment vehicle. I mean, I understand the desire to use it out of desperation, but it's still not a solid alternative. You're just at the whims of the world's miners and speculators.

Well, if you look at the volatility of bitcoin in particular, you'll see that it is decreasing pretty steadily. The first big bull run was very significant, 1000x, whereas the last bull market was only about 100x. The current one who knows, but it's looking like it will be about 10x. This volatility is a part of the price discovery process for any new asset class.

Fiat currency may appear stable, but it is not. It appears stable because it is used as the unit of account for all other assets in a country. In the long run, any freely floating asset will be more stable than any fiat currency managed the way modern ones are managed, via a central bank, provided that the supply change of that freely floating asset is predictable. Gold, for example, has a supply increase that is predictable. Central bank controlled fiat currencies are by definition not predictable in their supply, and this makes assets that are more suited to saving/investment, regardless of short term volatility. Nobody can empty your savings into their own pocket by printing gold or bitcoin.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#415

Post by betwixthewires »

alwillis wrote: post #393
betwixthewires wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I hate to use the word I'm about to use, because of the modern connotations associated with it, but it does apply here. There are billions of people who are abused by their government, who cannot trust their government, who's local money is debased by their government at a whim. You are privileged (there's that word) to have a government that you feel you can trust to control the value of your savings and your pur…

There are billions of people who are abused by their government, who cannot trust their government, who's local money is debased by their government at a whim. The United States inflated the money supply by many trillions of dollars in the past year, which decreases the buying power of the dollar. With savings accounts paying close to 0% interest, due to inflation, savers are losing money in these accounts each year.…

People don't realize that at that target rate of 2% yearly, your savings lose half their purchasing power over a 10 year timespan. The number looks small, so people see that and say "oh, no big deal" but they don't realize how big of an impact it has on their net worth if their assets are mostly fiat currency. Additionally, most people don't notice how this affects their behavior and encourages people to save less and spend more, but from a macroeconomic perspective the effect is plain as day, most people have less than 1k in savings.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#416

Post by fastball »

taffer wrote: post #409
fastball wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geology definitely has more experimental falsification attempts going on than economics. If you have a theory that is impossible to falsify experimentally, we're no longer talking about science (at least if your idea of science is the pursuit of objective truth). Modern "science" running amok with people more concerned with attempting to prove themselves correct than find the truth doesn't change that. > Popper's fal…

There are many scientific fields that cannot conduct experiments, such as climate science. To say that this is not science is quite naive.

First off I reject the premise that people investigating the climate cannot perform experiments.

Even assuming what you say is true, if not experiments and attempts at falsifying your ideas, how does one pursue the truth?

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#417

Post by alwillis »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #383
tomp wrote: post #56

Ok, so let's focus on the underlying idea, without the "Facebook is trying to rebrand their evil brand" cruft. Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". It could even scale even more to a money store but that'…

I don't understand why people just can't use Ethereum for this with a little more polishing on the UI end from the devs. It has the added benefit of being decentralized, something Facebook or any other company or charity will never be. It even recently implemented proof of stake rollout so it isn't using massive environmental resources for proof of work in the future. Of course Bitcoin was ideal for this but it went…

Not to put too fine a point on this, but here's a tweet about a $165,000,000 bitcoin transaction; the fee was $1.20: https://twitter.com/coinbeastmedia/status/133612299565221888...

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#418

Post by stu2b50 »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #160
stu2b50 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. Which is the only fiat currency Diem supports conversion into right now.

> If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. The dollar is traded so much that I don't think they need to actually get dollars from the US to be able to use the dollar. If it's going into banks, yea, but if you're just giving people the notes, you're good to go.

It's extremely difficult to facilitate USD money movement if you're blacklisted by the US treasury. Just ask Iran. I suppose technically possible (again: ask Iran) but somehow I doubt Facebook is playing that game.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#419

Post by weare138 »

baumandm wrote: post #228
netsharc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Zuck's mission wasn't really about empowering the unbanked, but it's: fight WeChat. WeChat already has an effective digital payment system, with the tasty tasty analytics and surveillance capabilities (which yeah, Zuck also probably wants). As to blockchains, that's because this is the hype of the last few years, is it not? As to currencies, IMO the vision of the people hyping bitcoin was that your pizza plac…

Facebook Messenger can already transfer money between people. They could just expand that into a fully featured digital wallet to compete with WeChat, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Cash App, PayPal, etc. It's actually astonishing they didn't do this a decade ago. I get the VC appeal of blockchain, but Facebook already has the money to fund it. Outside tech circles I don't think slapping a blockchain label on a…

I agree. I don't quite understand what overall benefit something like Diem brings. It seems like an extraneous amount of technical overhead and yak shaving just to do something other companies have been doing for years. It just strikes me as some convoluted marketing ploy to attract VCs. All Facebook needs to do now is figure out how to throw AI into the mix and they'll win tech buzzword bingo.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#420

Post by cortesoft »

edmundsauto wrote: post #413
cortesoft wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So first, you of course picked one of the very few deflationary growth periods in history. Second, that deflationary period was caused by a huge increase in productivity... it is known as "the second industrial revolution", and global production efficiency took off during that period. Third, the fact that there was only 4% actually shows that growth was artificially constrained by a limited money supply; productive e…

Not OP, but they were bringing up a counterpoint to the "absolutely" destroys a nation. The counter example did not destroy the US, proving the original statement false. Your third point also sounds like story-telling, or fitting a story to the evidence. Does that mean it is the only possible explanation for what occurred? If not, how can we determine which explanation is correct?

Yeah, you are right... it is a vast oversimplification and is not the only possible explanation.

I guess my point is that time period is clearly an outlier in a number of ways, which is why it is one of the only examples of high growth + deflation periods in history... it doesn't change the conclusion that you should aim for a small amount of inflation if you want economic growth. A single counter-example doesn't change the conclusion; just because we know there are people who have won huge jackpots in the lottery doesn't mean we stop suggesting saving money for retirement.

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