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Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

diem.com

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Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#371
post #56

Ok, so let's focus on the underlying idea, without the "Facebook is trying to rebrand their evil brand" cruft. Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". It could even scale even more to a money store but that'…

> Why a "new currency"?

You need an all digital currency to keep transaction fees cheap, and to speed up transactions especially accross countries.

Just think about it, today's currencies are backed by physical paper. At some point, if A paid B, B should receive the physical paper money for the exchange. This is known as liquidity, and it's the major reason why money transfers over the internet today are expansive and slow.

> Is there a reason this is tied to the blockchain?

Yes, blockchain is key. Look at what all modern currencies in use have in common? They are backed by a very powerful entity, mostly governments with real power (weapon and authority on actual land and people). This isn't a coincidence, whoever controls the currency has huge power, imagine being able to make money as you please and give it to yourself or others.

You can't trust any single party with such power. Governments are the closest thing people can trust today, often because they have no choice, and sometimes because there's ton and ton of scrutiny, checks and guards in place around them.

And still, when currency is physical, it is also slightly harder to make more for yourself without trail.

Now if currency was digital, it be so easy to abuse, so anyone who had single central control could easily cheat everyone else. You'd not just be in control of the currency like the government is, you'd also become in control of the ledger. That means, that single central entity does not only control the digital currency (how much of it and who it gives it too), but it also controls the exchange of it (keeps track of who has how much of it and who transfer it to who else). That's incredible power, they could just seize your money without scrupule for example.

Blockchain is about solving this issue. If the currency and ledger is controlled by a distributed blockchain, then you don't have a single central entity with all this power. Instead the power is distributed to whoever wants to participate in it.

Now this is still an area of research in some way. Proof of work was one way, and it suffers from the fact that compute majority wins, and the compute majority could actually be owned by a single entity (which owns a ton of compute resources making up the majority).

Proof of stake is the new idea, it says that everyone who wants to be a part of controlling the currency and ledger has to put a deposit amount of their own money. If they are found to have cheated or acted wrongly, they never get that money back, otherwise they get it back and a little bonus for their effort.

In this scheme, you could still have a single actor taking full control, but they'd need to have a ton of money, more money then everyone else's combined stake. So it's much harder to do so.

> Is there a reason this would be tied to a company, instead of being run by e.g. a charity?

To some extent, it doesn't matter who starts it, if it ends up being a distributed open source piece of software, that is run by people from all around the world on different machines not all controlled by one entity, then it has become something out of the hand of whoever started it. Charity or Company, neither in my opinion could be trusted with a single central solution, but they can both try to kickstart an open source distributed blockchain ledger and currency, as long as it does in fact distribute control in a way that single or minority can't control it fully.

> I'm sure there are many issues with fraud/reversible transactions/KYC/anti-terrorism/anti-money-laundering that would need to be resolved somehow

This is probably one of the biggest issue currently, in a weird way, trying to solve the problem of no single central authority also makes it difficult for the government of any country to enforce rules and regulations over it.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accountable to a government body with opaque motives and capture over its citizens. Crypto has inspectable source code and miners and coin holders can jump ship if shenanigans are perceived

How’d that Ethereum DAO attack go? Some folks just decided to hard fork the chain. Much trust, such governance. I’d elect for a suboptimal government over such mechanisms any day, which seems to be a global consensus when you observe the lack of volatility in reserve currency values.

Crypto is nascent and I would expect finger burning as part of the path to long term stability. I'm not personally wedded to any of the current implementations in their current versions, but long term the concept of crypto currency supplants governmental fiat money

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How’d that Ethereum DAO attack go? Some folks just decided to hard fork the chain. Much trust, such governance. I’d elect for a suboptimal government over such mechanisms any day, which seems to be a global consensus when you observe the lack of volatility in reserve currency values.

Crypto is nascent and I would expect finger burning as part of the path to long term stability. I'm not personally wedded to any of the current implementations in their current versions, but long term the concept of crypto currency supplants governmental fiat money

[deleted]

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#374
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there ever any benefit to using a blockchain - other than marketing BS, of course? It was always Facebook (or their chosen partners) who controlled the coin, so the blockchain was pointless - there never was any decentralized trust, as I understand it?

Blockchain has a zinger name, but it's useless when real-world applications are in play. It is slow and energy inefficient. Considering that it got "reset" by the owners once after a divergence, it's not that "decentralized". It has a group that controls it. Secondly, it's definitely not secure in the sense that is advertised. Aside from regular social engineering and old-school hacks to get people's tokens, governme…

> governments have been successful in tracing transections in investigations. That's how SilkRoad got got

Tracing transactions on the BTC public ledger did not lead to the downfall of the Silk Road.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#376
post #56

Ok, so let's focus on the underlying idea, without the "Facebook is trying to rebrand their evil brand" cruft. Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". It could even scale even more to a money store but that'…

> low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world Missing in the US . At least Europe has had those for a long time already, using normal banks.

and they are a LOT more expensive than their crypto counterparts

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#377
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to pay your taxes with it gives it some more worth than just numbers.

Paying US taxes doesn’t count. That’s like saying I can pay gas fees with ETH.

This is not specific to the US. You pay Japanese taxes in Yen.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#378
post #56

Ok, so let's focus on the underlying idea, without the "Facebook is trying to rebrand their evil brand" cruft. Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked". It could even scale even more to a money store but that'…

> Basically, I think the underlying idea is valuable - low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers - clearly something missing right now in this world, even for the "global rich" (citizens of first-world countries), let alone for the "unbanked".

I can send money to friends via PayPal or Venmo completely free. What’s missing?

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how forks work.

If they had sold some items for Eth just before the fork, they will never recover the Eth, and they may be unable to recover the items either. So yes, in a fork people lose money.

forks set their genesis state as a snapshot of a block on the original chain. if anything you now have twice as much money since your account has funds on the old chain and the new one

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't always agree w/ my government here in the US, but I do like that--while it's not a perfect process--as a democracy I can influence it. The reason it's illegal to buy certain things in the US (people, organs, drugs, assassinations) is that we all got together and thought people shouldn't do that. Many people disagree but, that's what voting is for. Subverting the will of a democratic people is... immoral? The…

You assume that government is good and prohibited uses are bad. But your gov banned wikileaks bank accounts in the past and that is the perfect example of the case when the gov is definitely is a malicious actor (while their behaviour perfectly rational from their side of things). Govs do war crimes, mass espionage and human rights violations. That should be addressed as well.

> You assume that government is good and prohibited uses are bad.

Not quite. We assume that government is controlled by the people and thus I have some influence in its operation. The state often does truly horrible things, but so do plenty of organizations that I cannot control at all. I'll take the one that I have some degree of influence on.

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