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Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

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Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#301

Post by hogFeast »

beambot wrote: post #194
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one disputes that those events you cite happened. However, those events were essentially random, not caused by local efforts to stimulate industry. Because of them, the area was blessed/cursed with an excess of productivity that it didn't know how to cause. Now it's just coasting downhill, unable to maintain the altitude that it once had because it never knew how to (was never possible to?) build that altitude wit…

They were most certainly caused by local efforts in the 1950s. The reason the Silicon revolution happened in Silicon Valley had everything to do with Cold War radar systems. I suggest watching Steve Blank's Secret History of Silicon Valley to get a better historical perspective: https://steveblank.com/secret-history/

The "silicon revolution" happened at Bell Labs, rising out of their need to replace vacuum tubes. Shockley only moved to SV because his mother lived there, and she was sick. And it just so happened that Terman invested heavily in making Stanford into a college with heavy links to industry. It is true that military research was a factor in this process (again, semi-coincidentally...Bell Labs invested heavily in military research because they believed, correctly at first, that this would protect them from being broken up...radar was invented, in its modern form, in the UK and developed heavily by Bell Labs/MIT) but there were other factors. SV's pre-eminence looked at from the 1950s was extremely non-obvious however (Boston was the centre of the VC world, MIT and Bell Labs led in research).

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#302

Post by setpatchaddress »

pvarangot wrote: post #97
ghaff wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to like about many areas of California. Which ones may depend on your weather, cultural, etc. preferences. But Silicon Valley proper I find not particularly appealing; housing costs are only part of the reason. (SF itself has well-documented pluses and minuses.) I don't live or work in CA/SV. But if I were in SV but no longer needed to commute, I might well stay in CA but I'd probably move somewhere out…

I think SVs appeal is that you can leave in a quiet suburb close to a lot of easily accessible nature, while still having Amazon 2-day shipping, ridesharing, Uber Eats, and luxury retail. There's not many places in the US like this. Europe has a lot but there's not much tech jobs in them. You are also close to SF if you like the madness of the city every once in a while. Other suburby places with nature easily access…

The Bay Area isn't especially nice in this regard, for one reason:it is crowded. you won't ever get a moment of peace in all of that nature unless you get lucky.

For variety, I actually think the LA area as a whole is better. But it has the same problem.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#303

Post by [deleted] »

chrismckleroy wrote: post #3
coldtea wrote: post #2

> threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy There was no inherent "supremacy", just one created by a bunch of companies being together. Did SV municipalities do anything else to deserve it? There are better places, with more rental space, more resources, better weather, and so on, plus WFH is here to stay...

“Better weather” I can’t help but laugh. One of five Mediterranean climates worldwide, built on apricot orchards, formerly home to one of the most diverse animal and again ecosystems before the arrival of whites. It’s really hard to beat the weather in Silicon Valley. It’s almost non seasonal, anything grows. The diversity currently of this area is very high, it’s the home of top universities, between the two cross p…

[deleted]

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#304

Post by theflyinghorse »

birdyrooster wrote: post #107
sandworm101 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> and still come out ahead financially. Ya. Earning a SF wage but living elsewhere is great. But there is a flip side to this coin. As employees realize they can work from home, employers also realize they can have employees work from home. They will soon realize they don't need to pay SF wages. Those who convert their in-office jobs into work-from-home are a covid oddity. Those who will be hired in the future on th…

We’ve been trying to hire these people for ages locally and remotely and we still couldn’t find them so I have no idea where you think all the talent was hiding until covid 19.

It seems that wages are a lot lower in lower cost of living areas. So what makes it that a developer in SF is much more expansive than the one in, let's say, Chicago?

Or let's flip it around, move the same developer from Chicago to SF and they will suddenly make more money.

I can only imagine that cost of living is the main factor. Naturally there will be a tiny minority of truly brilliant builders and engineers, but we are not talking about them as they are outliers.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#305

Post by dpoochieni »

CountSessine wrote: post #253
sandworm101 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> wealth distribution At the moment that may be true but increasing the pool of potential labor rarely results in wealth distribution. I think companies will pay less. That money won't go to other hires as tech companies limit hiring for other reasons than money. The money will go to bottom lines, to stockholders: the opposite of wealth distribution.

Maybe? But as things are, most of those generous employee salaries are parasitized by NIMBY landlords and property owners in SFBA who have selfishly engineered SF's horrendous housing supply shortage. If that value is going to be captured by anyone, I would much MUCH rather it be captured by Google shareholders, many of whom are employees and are at least partly responsible for the company's incredible success, than…

Not maybe, it is supply and demand. IF the supply of remote labor does increase then the share of economic profit going to capital also increases. (i.e. Employers keep more of the profits as opposed to sharing)

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#306

Post by coffee »

sandworm101 wrote: post #89
bigyikes wrote: post #13

As it happens, tomorrow I’m putting in my 30-day notice to terminate my lease and leave the Bay. (And I’m paying 2 additional months rent in fees to do so) Not being tied to the office fundamentally changes the calculus of choosing where to live. There just aren’t good reasons to live here anymore for so many of us. Even if you enjoy the area, chances are you can get a better deal by moving just a bit further away. A…

>> and still come out ahead financially. Ya. Earning a SF wage but living elsewhere is great. But there is a flip side to this coin. As employees realize they can work from home, employers also realize they can have employees work from home. They will soon realize they don't need to pay SF wages. Those who convert their in-office jobs into work-from-home are a covid oddity. Those who will be hired in the future on th…

> They will soon realize they don't need to pay SF wages.

This isn't new, it's already been realized long ago. I've been working remote for ~10 years and there is always a location modifier in the salary.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#307

Post by hogFeast »

dekhn wrote: post #134
nph5667 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was the local govts did not contribute to the the rise of Silicon Valley, not that no one in the Bay area was involved

local govts did a few things to enable this. They created a welcoming business environment that allowed for rapid expansion. For example, Stanford Research Park was a joint venture of Stanford, and Palo Alto. I am not sure there is any good writeup on the contribution of local governments to silicon valley.

Do you know how many local govts tried to do similar things and it failed? Local govt is not the essential component here.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#308

Post by rmk »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #148
rmk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know exactly, but my experience is that most parents say private schools do a better job (teachers are better engaged and aren't checked out, apathetic pencil pushers). In the areas with good school districts (and there are a handful of those), things swing to another extreme: too much pressure, like Singapore-style schools, which causes children to buckle under the pressure later in their lives.

> but my experience is that most parents say private schools do a better job This sounds more like classism to me.

It is not. Remember that public schools (they are essentially free for the parents) are competing with private schools that are charging 20k+ per year per pupil. Most people who have to work for a living will not shell out 20k+ or (50-60k if there are siblings involved) simply because they are classist: they see clear advantages in private schools.

This year, most bay area public schools are online. Many private schools are still operating in person. For young children, this makes a world of difference. Just one instance of where private schools come out on top.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#309

Post by microtherion »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #174
munaf wrote: post #40

It's notable that a lot of people are moving, but I'd wait until at least early 2022 to make judgements about lasting impacts on SV. WFH might not stick widely, and some firms will pick a hybrid model (i.e. partial WFH) over going fully remote. Not to mention that few places can match all the benefits of SV, i.e. unenforceable non-competes, fantastic weather and surroundings, an educated and diverse population, cultu…

I lived in SV for a decade and worked in SF for most of that. > WFH might not stick widely If the vast majority of workers demand it, then I don't think employers will have a choice here. Leaving now is a vote with your feet. > unenforceable non-competes Very few of my peers have ever cared about this in practice. I don't think this is remotely a major benefit compared to e.g. state taxes. > fantastic weather and sur…

> > cultural activities

> I actually cannot think of anything unique to the Bay here...

https://kfjc.org/events/psychotronix

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#310

Post by omgwtfbyobbq »

raldi wrote: post #233

Silicon Valley is Over is the new The Suit is Back. "I think it's fair to say that Silicon Valley is dead." —Founder of Altavista, 1993 https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/bvE0Ka5... (Link doesn't work on mobile)

Everything old really is new again.

The cost of housing and office space has spiraled out of control, thanks to the environmentalists and Prop 13.

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