Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises • Hacker News Board

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#61

Post by grive » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:12 AM UTC

temp20160423 wrote: post #45

denkmoon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us software developers are too smart for organised labour. And why would companies like Epic restrict their revenues like that? Epic too sees financial gain from their developers working excessive (potentially unpaid) overtime, no doubt. Unions are necessarily devised and lead by workers, not beneficent corps.

That's correct. If you're a software developer and interested in maximizing pay while minimizing stress, you obviously avoid the gaming industry. The only news here is that the company seems to have reneged on the promise it made, but it's not obvious how a union would have solved this problem. Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

> Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

This is such a weird logic. Since when should the company financial incentives have higher priority over the employees well-being? Arguably, if the existence of the company is threatened by a few delays and that the only solution is to exploit people, it should instead close shop and let people get other jobs that will make them happier.

So no, a union would probably not help the game be shipped in time, and if it did, it would be the shittiest union. And if enforcing humane working conditions against the profits of the employer makes the business unsustainable, this means the business should not exist in the first place.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#62

Post by detaro » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:15 AM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #53

jakelazaroff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the promotional strategy seems to have focused on engaging the GamerGate portion of their fanbase, I’d say it’s not baffling at all. https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/4/22058784/cyberpunk-2077-ma...

I was confused by this article. I am interested in understanding better the point of view of the author and if you have insight in it I would appreciate if you can elaborate on your comment. The criticism of the character creation surprised me: sure it could be better, but is it not also the most embracing version created yet in any AAA videogame that we known of. Same with the poster: is it not cool to have a buff t…

I think the key point in regard to your question is this line

> Cyberpunk 2077’s advertising has been saying the quiet part loud. It has maintained the spiky, anti-SJW, anti-woke persona throughout its marketing campaign, careful to always pepper any diverse characters’ inclusion with stereotyping or humor designed to mock its own ideas.

As the article concedes, these pieces individually don't have to be bad, but they are always presented by the overall marketing as something to make fun of or stereotype, not as something to take seriously or positively.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#63

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

temp20160423 wrote: post #45

denkmoon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us software developers are too smart for organised labour. And why would companies like Epic restrict their revenues like that? Epic too sees financial gain from their developers working excessive (potentially unpaid) overtime, no doubt. Unions are necessarily devised and lead by workers, not beneficent corps.

That's correct. If you're a software developer and interested in maximizing pay while minimizing stress, you obviously avoid the gaming industry. The only news here is that the company seems to have reneged on the promise it made, but it's not obvious how a union would have solved this problem. Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

> The only news here is that the company seems to have reneged on the promise it made, but it's not obvious how a union would have solved this problem. Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

Quite likely yes, though not directly. Foreclosing avenues that management tends to fall into which are both empirically not particularly effective and also miserable working conditions, like more than brief crunch time, probably does improve delivery, though that's not the main goal.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#64

Post by detaro » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:19 AM UTC

nonbirithm wrote: post #55

Aeolun wrote: post #3

That’s dissapointing. Especially after they ‘promised’ they wouldn’t do it. I wonder what the solution is here. Boycotting the game is hardly going to help the employees there. I guess this is just one of those things that the law should mandate, but does not for some reason.

The people complaining about it being delayed are probably the people least likely to change their minds because of the delays and not buy the game when it comes out. Empty promises about crunch and lost trust won't matter as much to those people when the game comes out. Also, does the general gaming subculture still care about Red Dead Redemption 2's development and the livelihood and mental health costs it caused t…

For GTA, that's probably also because later updates has worked extremely well for GTA V. The online aspects of it, with regular new content, have taken over the single-player side by a lot, so it makes sense double-down on that model.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#65

Post by awill » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

This is a terrible situation. I think leadership bit off more than they could chew. Releasing a polished game on PC, consoles and Stadia simultaneously is nigh on impossible for a large, open world game. I bet Google offered them a bunch of money to launch simultaneously on Stadia, but they still should have said no. There is a reason Sony games are so polished. They release on a single platform.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#66

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

denkmoon wrote: post #32

defen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a software developers’ union. Big projects like this use a lot of third party tooling; imagine if a decent percentage of those said “we won’t license this to you unless you’re a union shop” or something like that. And said union would enforce humane working conditions.

Us software developers are too smart for organised labour. And why would companies like Epic restrict their revenues like that? Epic too sees financial gain from their developers working excessive (potentially unpaid) overtime, no doubt. Unions are necessarily devised and lead by workers, not beneficent corps.

> Us software developers are too smart for organised labour

Too smart to from cartels instead of being played off against each other by labor by buyers with greater market power?

Nah, just too many have bought into propaganda being spread from the other side of the negotiating table designed to preserve the existing power imbalance.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#67

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:25 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #34

detaro wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is using it to excuse anything? Saying that objecting to death threats is used as a distraction technique or "as an excuse" is pretty much suggesting you shouldn't object to it, because doing so is trying to distract or make excuses instead of objecting to unacceptable behavior.

A) death threats aren't acceptable. They're not really fun to receive. I remember a span when I received several and while I was fairly sure they weren't serious, it's still not too fun to think about. B) whinging about inevitable death threats to deflect attention from your gaffes isn't really great, either. The public complaint, if anything, further normalizes the death threats with people inclined to make them. Se…

"If one wants to object to death threats in a way that improves our culture and makes them less likely, it's probably best done out of band from the actual coverage of one's failing. Do it retrospectively, and in contemplative channels, not ones that are already polemic and filled with attention to the failing that caused the original outrage."

Violent extremists are often operate under the mistaken belief that they represent the "silent majority", and that most people secretly agree with what they do.

This is one reason that when a political party that tacitly or explicitly approves of extremist violence gets in to power more terrorist acts are committed. It's also why, for example, racists terrorists believe the murders they commit will spark a "race war". They believe that most people are secretly racist, and all it'll take for such a war to start is for their murders to encourage people's secret hatred to come to the surface.

To counteract this, it's important for the real majority to not be silent, and instead condemn violence, hatred, and terrorism (which includes death threats) in the strongest possible terms. When terrorists see evidence that the majority actually opposes them it'll require a lot more cognitive dissonance on their part to continue to believe that they represent the majority.

This is not a panacea, and I don't imagine for a moment that it will end all violence, especially as some people will never believe the evidence of their lying eyes, but many people speaking out in public against violence is one of the most effective tools we have for combating violent extremism.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#68

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:26 AM UTC

0xy wrote: post #52

jakelazaroff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares? It’s a game . Incompetence or not, harassing and threatening devs is not okay.

Reread the OP. It's not exclusively about threats. This is also a giant billion dollar corporation that deliberately misled customers (who in many cases have already paid them for the product). How did they deliberately mislead them? By saying things like only a natural disaster would stop the latest release date, only for it to slip with less than a month left. That's an actual lie and false advertising. As someone…

Estimates are hard, software gets delayed. It’s not fun for the customer but it happens all the time and life goes on. Ask for your money back, or try for a class action lawsuit if you really think it’s fraudulent.

Obviously people can feel however they want, but we’re talking about $5–60 and like eight months delay; you’ll forgive me for being a little dismissive of people who are “furious” about this.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#69

Post by dathinab » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:26 AM UTC

memonkey wrote: post #50

sim_card_map wrote: post #11

And billions of profits go to owners and shareholders, while developers crunch 80 hours/week for $2000-3000/month.

You're getting a lot of hate for this comment but I think it's an important discussion. It isn't easy to "just go somewhere else" or "start your own thing" for a variety of reasons. The reality is that the majority of these game developers aren't getting job offers every day and don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. It's flippant to suggest that these developers can just find another…

Yep, exactly that.

> "just go somewhere else"

Mostly means leaving the game industry, which also means leaving behind years of experience, and the area of expertise you prefer to work in (if it wouldn't be for the working conditions).

> "start your own thing"

Is in general just unrealistic as an advise for most people. It's risky, costly, stressfull and needs a bunch of additional skills which are not necessary part of your current job.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#70

Post by uberman » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

dom96 wrote: post #17

> While long hours would be permitted for those interested in working them, crunch would not be made “mandatory.” Yeah, I'm sure that works well. How can you compete with those that do work long hours when it comes time for performance reviews? The fear of losing your job is very real and I'm sure that creates a culture where in effect everyone is working long hours, no matter what the CD Projekt co-founder says.

Those that work harder or longer than others get ahead. This is a universal truism and also very distinct from the mandated overtime dictated by many developers.