A draft copy of the disputed paper was posted over in Reddit, if this is of interest to anyone: https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t... https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF
I'd been looking for that. Thanks for posting.
More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
61–70 of 266 posts
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?
It's called "insubordination".
Doesn't that apply only to soldiers?
Does Google really consider its employers soldiers that have to obey to orders?
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#63She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.
I think the subtle, yet important, difference is that she said she would quit by a certain date and they terminated her immediately. Given her role is likely just for PR it seems rather foolish not to at least give her two weeks notice or something.
This is par for the course at most companies with IP to protect. If you quit they just walk you out.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might get fired for... supporting your bosses' decision to fire someone?
Some people have a stance they chose, that this is some Daily Mail "political correctness gone mad" thing, because SJW cultural domination controls all our lives. They're working through some cognitive dissonance.
Exactly. Someone reading the headline and not knowing that Timnit was an empoyee of Google would just read the headline into their confirmation bias.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#65I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…
They're often meant to be somewhat hollow. The referenced letter (https://googlewalkout.medium.com/standing-with-dr-timnit-geb...) uses dramatic language to issue pretty anodyne demands: Brain leadership should meet with her former team and explain what went wrong, Google should publicly explain what it was they found objectionable in her paper, and Google Research should confirm they're committed to research integrity and academic freedom. Someone could easily sign this letter without thinking Google's a bad company at all.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?
Without commenting on the politics of this particular case, I think what you describe is built into the definition of "boss".
Not universally though. In countries with stronger labor protections and unions, you can’t just fire people for philosophical disagreements (not without those disputes being mediated anyway).
I don’t understand how we arrived at some conception of workplaces as little dictatorships, where bosses can treat people however they want and that’s somehow good or legitimate.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#67She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.
So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?
As much as I support employment rights, you are paid by a company to do their bidding. If you don't like it start a company, but then you're just doing the bidding of the customer.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not an example of "firing people that don't buy into the groupthink." She gave an ultimatum: either doxx the people who said her paper was unfit, or she quits. Google didn't give into her demands so accepted her resignation and moved her end date up because of her browbeating.
Wanting to know which coworkers are raising feedback in a process that does not provide for anonymous feedback in the first place is not "doxxing" them. (EDIT: Note that this particular process was not a peer review process - academic peer review is done by people from another institution , and selected by the venue after submitting a paper. This was a pre-submission internal review process which has never been bille…
Peer review for academic papers is typically anonymous. She would have been familiar with the process. In the end, the editor (in this case the manager) takes responsibility for the decision.
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#69I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…
The protests against dragonfly and maven seemed to have an effect, which is the opposite of hollow?
Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru
#70Fire them too.