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72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

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Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#431

Post by folmar »

sp332 wrote: post #198
EvanAnderson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right to be suspicious. The DNS-over-HTTPS model favors those who run the servers (because they get exclusive access to monetizable end user name resolution data) and those who control the resolvers. You might control the resolver on your personal computer (for now). You probably don't control it on your phone. You most likely won't control it on your embedded devices.

I still prefer DoH giving "exclusive" access to resolvers, because the alternative is sending that data in plaintext for everyone along the path to read?

If your ISP is large enough it is only sent to ISP's name server which probably has everything you need cached, and if it isn't it might blend in with other queries. And your ISP can sniff SNI or guess target domains from target IPs already.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#432

Post by hakfoo »

slg wrote: post #403
bo1024 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and there are a lot of good reasons for that! The two functions become obsolete at different rates, and people have different needs for each of them, so it's the right place to put an abstraction layer. When I buy a computer monitor, I can pair it with any computer I want. I can upgrade the graphics card or processor independently of the monitor. I'm not locked in to a particular computer based on the features o…

>The two functions become obsolete at different rates The implication here is that the connectivity tech goes obsolete quicker than screen tech. That has traditionally been true, but has it been over the last 5 years or so? We don't even have to get into the specific display technology. Just from a feature perspective, there has been a lot of innovation in screens including 4k, HDR, and high refresh rates.

And the dominant broadcast standards are still 1080i 60Hz with no extra dynamic range. A large amount of new content is still targeting that. Aside from over-the-air, I suspect that most cable/satellite operators are offering that service level, at least without premium fees.

Since the end of the digital-TV transition, the TV industry has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall trying to find something that stuck. There's no clear "it becomes a paperweight" factor to make us all go out and replace newish sets right now. Remember the 3D TV trend? Or the year when everyone brought out curved sets, and then went back to flat? Smart TVs are another variation on that theme, with the added benefit for manufacturers that their lowest-bid tech and changing third-party service requirements will leave you with a set where half the hard-coded service buttons don't work and the other half are unusably slow to depress you into buying a new set in three years.

I expect the next real ecosystem change will be when ATSC 3.0 becomes a workable thing. Then you'll actually be able to offer 4K/HDR with an array of content without the caveat of "external game console/PC/streaming service required." I'd be a bit hesitant to get a new set until then just out of the risk you ended up with something not fully compliant (I'm thinking of those first-gen 4K LCDs that wouldn't accept a 60Hz input)

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#433

Post by folmar »

shawnz wrote: post #230
encom wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned in TFA, configuring a firewall to redirect DNS traffic from broken or malicious software is also trivial. Or are you talking about hardcoding IP addresses?

There are plenty of other alternatives. The simplest (but least flexible) would be hardcoding an IP of the final server. Somewhat more sophisticated would be hardcoding an IP to a server with a REST endpoint that returns the real final IP. (Basically just like what DoH does, but without calling it DoH). Even more sophisticated would be hiding the final IP on some kind of public web service like Twitter or Github.

You can/should block connections to IPs which were not returned by DNS recently.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#434

Post by throwaway09223 »

thebean11 wrote: post #427
throwaway09223 wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right way to fix this is one single smart device, which is the only device connected to the dumb TV. The best of these types don't have a remote. They're controlled by a phone. If the intelligence is built into the TV then it cannot be updated or replaced -- so either there will again be multiple devices, or the TV will need to be replaced on a frequent basis. A smart TV makes the problem you describe even worse

Completely disagree on the lack of remote. Hitting a button on a remote is better UI than needing to unlock a phone and hope that it's actually connected to the streaming device (not always the case). I think the new Chromecast is an admission from Google that the average person still wants a remote.

Perhaps I should say that the best of this type offer the option of using a phone.

I personally prefer a phone but I also understand the preference of a remote. With a separate smart device these types of preferences can be accommodated over time, unlike with a one size fits all smart TV.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#435

Post by mkhalil »

jon-wood wrote: post #10

I’m responsible for a bunch of IoT hardware, and every firmware spec I write includes a note on not using the DNS servers provided via DHCP. While sure there are companies explicitly doing this to avoid filtering, at least in my case it’s because a significant proportion of DHCP servers are configured to send DNS to your ISP, and ISP provided DNS is almost universally terrible. They’ll ignore TTLs, rewrite NXDOMAIN r…

I can attest to this. Story:

Many years ago, a old friend of mine purhcased a new Panasonic Smart TV. It was when "Smart TVs" were just becoming a thing.

I hooked her TV up for her; wiring it into the ATT uVerse modem directly. Other devices worked, but this one did not.

After resetting the modem, factory resetting TV, and making sure the ip address on the TV's menu were displaying properly and matched the router's config (they were), as a young naive tech nerd, I just said:

"Looks like they sold you a dud. Thankfully you kept the receipt!. Either way, you still have warranty to get it replaced."

My friend replied: "Shouldn't I call them first before taking it back?"

I said I didn't think it would help, but go ahead.

About 30 mins laters, she was talking to Panasonic tech support and they asked her to manually enter the DNS entries [I believe it was 75.75.. so Comcrap's], and voila, the TV was online again.

We were very happy it was an easy fix; but that day I deftinely did a LOT of reading on DNS servers.

Till this day, DNS entries are something I always check over when troubleshooting (as well as setting my router to Cloudfare's).

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#436

Post by kgwxd »

gcatalfamo wrote: post #421
Bud wrote: post #261

This isn't difficult: TVs should not be "smart". TVs should be incredibly dumb. They should be screens for displaying stuff. That's it. Nothing else. No network connection of any kind, no apps, no software beyond that necessary to do basic setup of how that screen works: brightness, input selection, etc.

I used to think like you then I realized is not that non smart TVs are better, but that no one is making smart TV non shitty. Underpowered hardware running a non-optimized version of android...or worse. If things weren’t done so badly, a unique interface would definitely be the way to go.

Screens can and should last well over 10 years. No matter what hardware or software is put in there, it's going to stop being maintained after a period of time much shorter than that. At that point the convenience of built in smarts, if there even is any, becomes a major inconvenience and you either have to work around it or make a giant piece of e-waste.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#437

Post by heavyset_go »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #313
erentz wrote: post #191

I’m kind of surprised there isn’t an OpenWRT style project out there to provide a replacement OS for common Smart TVs. At least I couldn’t find one. I’m obviously lacking in understanding the massive difficulties such a project would likely face. But it sure would be very nice to be able to replace my TVs firmware with something open source. I don’t want a dongle or extra box or extra remote. There’s a perfectly good…

Afaik OpenWRT still has no auto-updating functionality so I'd rather not see something in that poor state on even more Internet connected devices.

You can upgrade packages with opkg and via the web GUI and treat it like you would any other Linux distribution when it comes to upgrades.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#438

Post by shirakawasuna »

Bud wrote: post #261

This isn't difficult: TVs should not be "smart". TVs should be incredibly dumb. They should be screens for displaying stuff. That's it. Nothing else. No network connection of any kind, no apps, no software beyond that necessary to do basic setup of how that screen works: brightness, input selection, etc.

You can purchase a monitor. This follows the philosophy of buying separate dumb devices that only do one thing. A dumb TV is just a monitor + speakers + a TV tuner, after all.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#439

Post by kgwxd »

jeffbee wrote: post #344
Bud wrote: post #261

This isn't difficult: TVs should not be "smart". TVs should be incredibly dumb. They should be screens for displaying stuff. That's it. Nothing else. No network connection of any kind, no apps, no software beyond that necessary to do basic setup of how that screen works: brightness, input selection, etc.

Counterpoint: smart TVs are great. My LG has replaced almost every other thing that used to be in my media room. It is my streaming music box (I can target it for casting from my favorite iOS app, and I can use the interface on it for browsing my home network storage if I want). It has Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, Hulu, Disney, Vudu, Google TV, and every other damn thing on it. It has voice search, so I just say the nam…

At some point, most of those things are going to stop working but the screen will still be perfectly fine. What are you going to do with it then?

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#440

Post by nemosaltat »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #338
gnu8 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question here is how are you going to install your root certificate on a $300 smart TV? Or, if that is not required because the TV does not verify DoH certificates, how bad is that for security (which we already know is awful on these devices)?

Well, it’d just block internet access there. I wonder if it’s possible to push a root to an Apple TV

The Checkrain jailbreak [0] supports several Apple TVs, so I’d bet you could use use certbot to obtain a LetEncrypt [1] cert for it.

Of course, jailbreaking opens up other security issues, so it goes back to what you can tolerate.

[0] https://checkrain.org/ [1] https://letsencrypt.org/getting-started/

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