This is Real, That's Not • Hacker News Board

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#281

Post by DubiousPusher » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

shortandsweet wrote: post #269

syshum wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Housing First, like with any Welfare program, it abuse. Housing First programs are ripe for abuse and are abused. While yes it is cheaper in some ways, the problem is people will be less likely to be creative or lean on personal support networks (i.e couch surfing, live with family, etc) if the government through the taxpayer will just hand you a key to an apartment no questions asked.... There were…

Abuse? How? And how do you know this? Where is the history of the entire world has this been attempted? I'm tired of hearing how people think it will go. Pre-critics and naysayers. I want action, drastic action that has never been done before to solve problems that have never been solved before. Offer a solution or go back to work.

It has been solved though. Most post industrial countries have solved or minimized it with generous safety nets.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#282

Post by Tade0 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #267

sethammons wrote: post #225

This was a good post. I particularly like: > I will suggest that repeating all the things you believe about how life is supposed to work will not magically make them true and thereby fix your problems. I recently realized I would frame some of my wants/desires as “I just want $x.” There is no natural order of fairness and by shifting my internal phrasing to “I want $x,” it helped shift my mental model to what concret…

If you're well off and living on a knife's edge, I don't think you're doing a very good job of managing your finances.

It's not about finances.

I also grew up relatively poor (we had food, but couldn't afford e.g. school books) and am currently pretty well off (saving more than half of my salary while enjoying a decent quality of life).

Such an upbringing leaves a mark. The other day I was thinking how it's been going too well for too long and I probably have, I don't know, ball cancer which is going to bring my situation to a more familiar level of misery.

I've lived my life having a plan B, C and often also D for every situation.

When you're not used to the good stuff, you become suspicious to the good stuff once it comes along.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#283

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

RickJWagner wrote: post #215

iddan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

Father of 3 here, one recently graduated and one about to start US college. With reasonable preparation, college is very affordable. Scholarships are easily obtained with a good ACT or SAT score. Both of these are well documented, a few months of self-study practically guarantees a good score. My experience has been that good preparation puts out of pocket costs below $10k per year. (I think that's actually on the hi…

[deleted]

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#284

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #260

RobertoG wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that there are not smokey rooms in all countries where they are plotting how to cut public services?

That is a similar, but distinctly different topic. Indeed, there are always people who are looking to cut public services, but the discussion was about the motive for doing that.

Yeah, but we are not talking about people in general, we are talking about board rooms in think tanks and cameras of commerce. What is the motive there?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#285

Post by throwaway2245 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #278

throwaway2245 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah apologies, I was answering my own question: I meant marginal tax required to pay for university level education in place of current student loans system.

this, but also that: “ What £ of tax would the working class family contribute towards university education” Is not really fair to the issue. It’s not a cost for university education, because it’s not open to all - there are gatekeepers - and those from underprivileged backgrounds have very little chance of being accepted to the most prestigious institutions, so it’s unfair to expect them to pay for it, is essentiall…

My point is that people from underprivileged backgrounds realistically don't pay any different amount in tax and are only further removed from access.

To repeat myself: "Their children take [accruing debt] to mean that they absolutely shouldn't go to university, no matter how capable they are."

Tax pays for plenty of things that working class people don't use; it also pays for plenty of things that working class people do use, that other people are paying for - and the latter category should include university education. Tax is an agreement that we find these things valuable to pay for, as a society. Not everything paid for in taxes has a direct benefit to everybody.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#286

Post by DanBC » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #234

DanBC wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternative do they have? If we don't provide adequate public loos, or addiction treatment, or injection rooms, or mental health care, we should expect to experience the problems that are caused.

I don't understand why it's so frowned upon in cities like LA to arrest someone for disposing used needles on the ground, and sending them to jail. I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. However, the alternative of letting them poison themselves with drugs, and I don't see how that's any more humane. I think the real reason America fails the homeless is not a lack of empathy, but a "it's yo…

Why would you spend thousands of dollars putting people in prison rather than just spending that cash on providing them treatment?

Addicts, by definition, take drugs. They continue to take drugs when they know it harms them. Why do you think the potential risk of going to prison for a few days will have a deterrent effect when the very real health consequences they're currently going through isn't a deterrent?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#287

Post by mistermann » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #284

mistermann wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a similar, but distinctly different topic. Indeed, there are always people who are looking to cut public services, but the discussion was about the motive for doing that.

Yeah, but we are not talking about people in general, we are talking about board rooms in think tanks and cameras of commerce. What is the motive there?

That's just your perception of what "we're" talking about. Think about it as you would when debugging software: how might you (an instance of a class in a complex system) know what other people (instances of classes within the system) are "talking about" (where talking derives from thinking/computation that takes place within those object instances)? Are you obtaining this knowledge via the calling of public interfaces? If not, then what is the True source of this knowledge?

Ironically (or not), the title of this overall thread is "This is Real, That's Not". The content of the discussions is a fine reflection of the very phenomenon that Doreen is talking about, and I suspect a plausible demonstration of why humanity can't sort its shit out, decade after decade: an inability (or unwillingness) to acknowledge the self-delusional nature of the human mind.

> What is the motive there?

The motives are complex, and unknown (the necessary callable public interfaces to obtain such knowledge do not exist - and yet, observe the number of people in this thread who perceive that they have knowledge of the contents of other people's minds. Is this not an extremely interesting phenomenon? Might this phenomenon have consequences in a complex system, especially if it exists but is completely unrealized?

I suspect that a specific, conscious motivation to bring about the specific end state that we are experiencing (inequality, homelessness, human suffering in general) also does not actually exist. Rather, I reckon the mess we are living in is more like some sort of a cosmic demonstration of the law unintended consequences, due to an unwillingness to acknowledge the complexities inherent in reality. A religious person may consider this punishment from God for disobedience. A comedian (or a schizophrenic) may consider it to be comedy at its finest. Each individual perceives reality through a custom lens, and comes to vastly different conclusions.

I could be wrong of course, but it's a fun way to look at it. Part of the fun is observing how people react to crazy ideas like this, that may actually have a fair amount of validity to them (how might we know, for sure, if they do, or do not?).

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#288

Post by Aunche » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #286

Aunche wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it's so frowned upon in cities like LA to arrest someone for disposing used needles on the ground, and sending them to jail. I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. However, the alternative of letting them poison themselves with drugs, and I don't see how that's any more humane. I think the real reason America fails the homeless is not a lack of empathy, but a "it's yo…

Why would you spend thousands of dollars putting people in prison rather than just spending that cash on providing them treatment? Addicts, by definition, take drugs. They continue to take drugs when they know it harms them. Why do you think the potential risk of going to prison for a few days will have a deterrent effect when the very real health consequences they're currently going through isn't a deterrent?

Of course treatment is better, but privileged Californians see the state "coercing" an addict to go to rehab as evil as well. That's why the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on homelessness rarely goes to the people who need it most.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#289

Post by Aunche » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #201

DubiousPusher wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivations of moneyed interests are obvious. But the contempt the working and middle classes have for the poor is something I'll never understand. I've often been obliged to pay for something I've seen others acquire freely and I say good for them. I wouldn't exchange places with them for a moment. It seems the pettiest of all things to begrudge someone whose life is a disater, even in the rare cases when it is…

There wouldn't be so much contempt for the homeless in California if they weren't allowed throw used needles or defecate everywhere.

To be clear, I'm not blaming the homeless or anything. My point is that the middle and working class hang out on the streets because they can't afford to spend their weekends in Monterey. Now they don't even have the streets. Blaming them for not having empathy is insensitive.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#290

Post by nullc » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #117

nullc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The top 1% net worth and the top 1% income are different things, Obviously. But if the figure is exclusive of their primary residence their return on investments isn't especially impressive-- e.g. it's sub index fund rates even assuming they have no other income than gains. :)

I would presume this is taxable income, which would be different from gross return on investment in any given year (depending on how you plan your taxable events). The other thing to consider is that index funds are essentially the best performing strategy over any significant period of time. For people who derive a significant portion of their income from investment returns, you’d expect some of them would have thei…

For example, I think it contradicts the narrative implied by many complaints about the rules around accredited investors and eligible contract participants and such that "the rich" benefit from important investment opportunities that are denied to less wealthy. It makes a case that joe-everyman can toss money into an index fund and out perform the wealthy.

I wouldn't expect 'given' year effects to be relevant, as it's averaging over a large number of people. Taxable is a better argument, since as you reach the highest marginal tax rates there is a lot of reasons to find ways to indefinitely defer paying taxes (e.g. die with it and pass it with stepped up cost basis).