Live data from Hacker News

This is Real, That's Not

streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com

251–260 of 364 posts

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German rents are relatively reasonable: "The price of Monthly rent for a 45 m2 (480 Sqft) furnished studio in NORMAL area in Leipzig is €352" i.e. slightly over $5,000 per year. [Source https://www.expatistan.com/price/studio-rent-normal-area/lei... ]

Wow, that's super cheap! Here in Grand Rapids, MI, USA (generally considered a low cost of living area) an unfurnished apartment in not great parts of town is on the order of $800/mo, plus about $150/mo in utilities, depending on how cold you can tolerate in winter and how hot in summer, i.e. double the price. Now, actual studio apartments command a premium here, and anything that small is hard to find, you'll more l…

Not sure about Leipzig (not the OP here) but in a sort of comparable (ish, Leipzig is much larger but also in the east of Germany) place elsewhere in Germany I paid about the same like 20 years ago. I had the choice of 2 bus routes to get to university (one was a special university Express bus running between the two campus locations) and I could walk to one in about 10 minutes, the other around 20 minutes. Town of about 150000 ppl and 15000 students.

In general public transport in cities in Germany is good. You may have pockets of town where you can't get from one side to the other without going to the center first but if you're in a reasonably small city even that doesn't take you forever. And if you have to cross town you can do it easily because the transit system is not only made for rush hour traffic to the center in the morning and out in the evening. You can go either direction at all times, even on weekends. Not all jobs are downtown either (though many are). You have offices all over the place too. In Frankfurt for example I would take the train (5min walk) to central station (maybe 20 min ride) then take the "S-Bahn" out to the other end (another 10 min or so) of the center to an office building right in the middle of lots of apartment buildings (3-4 storey max).

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#252
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have it over and over and over again that housing first is the approach that works. Yet it is very hard for society to stomach the idea of giving someone a handout "no matter what they have done or will do". I don't know why but this seems to be the primary psychic barrier to doing this thing we know works and which can in some cases even be cheaper than services first aid.

The problem with Housing First, like with any Welfare program, it abuse. Housing First programs are ripe for abuse and are abused. While yes it is cheaper in some ways, the problem is people will be less likely to be creative or lean on personal support networks (i.e couch surfing, live with family, etc) if the government through the taxpayer will just hand you a key to an apartment no questions asked.... There were…

I hate to call it abuse, but I do wonder how one avoids rewarding bad behaviour.

There are a lot of poor people who work very hard to provide for their family. I don't know what should we do for them.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#253
post #105

Under the medically justified urgency of covid, Victoria took a significant number of homeless rough sleeping people (as they are called here in australia) into some kind of housing. Queensland did the same using surplus student purpose built dense housing. I'm not going to pretend this "solved the problems" but I am told a number of the less intractable cases got put into a better situation,simply having secure shel…

Homelessness exists because the landlords and business people prefer it. Homelessness is a demonstrated threat of what not paying the rent and having a job will do to you. If you remove that dire threat, the housing market and job market becomes far more competitive for the workers and the owner class is disadvantaged. In the US, we have many more vacant houses than we have homeless people. The market system is incap…

I think your sentiment is in the right direction but I don’t think it’s as explicit as you’re proposing.

Landlords don’t “prefer” homelessness to exist. Their position, as capitalists, ends with their interests.

Many (not all!) landlord are quite simple: “Pay rent or I will evict you and find someone else”. That’s it.

After an eviction, they don’t care whether the person moves elsewhere or is homeless. In fact I’d argue that most people are probably on the gooder side of good and would prefer their former tenant move elsewhere and live a nice comfortable life and someone else can deal with their poorness.

What they do absolutely want is the ability to enforce that eviction. That’s key. But I doubt they care so much about the looming threat of homelessness.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand now that ‘social safety net’ means welfare programs. When I came to this country many years ago, I had a completely diff understanding of what ’social safety net’ meant... to me..how I understood it by my lived experience..it was the social/security net family/friends hold so that if you were unfortunate enough to fall, someone will catch you. Maybe it’s different in India now. But my generation remember…

First and second industrial revolutions made people rush to the cities and created a world where people are « factory workers », with fewer bounds to their origin land and to their family. In parallel, traditional values were criticized by modernity to the point of dismantling them. What we have now in the Western world is not families, it is millions of single independent autonomous actors. They have close friends,…

I think American homelessness is a unique case study. The problem could be its diversity of people. There is more social cohesion and tribal glue that holds together homogenous populations. It has to be something to see the person next to you through the lens of empathy. Usually it has a wide range..DNA, culture, language, education, faith etc. To say that America is ‘diverse’ is just another way of saying that American population is ‘fragmented’. It’s the same thing..but one has a positive connotation and the other is negative.

Similarly the results of diversity can be positive or negative. The people who slip through the cracks are those who don’t have enough glue on them to stick to any group that will embrace them as their own out of empathy.

I have been woolgathering and I also think the main reason is the young age of America. It simply leapfrogged into prosperous existence after minor dramas in its relatively short timeline. The only collectively experienced trauma is the civil war and that’s just a memory now. And it doesn’t even apply to everyone in the small population dataset. Weak small magnets.

America is also a nation of immigrants. We have never had any kings or queens. We have never deferred to authority ever and have no notion of social contracts. We believe in our ‘vote’.

There is always a reverse reciprocality to responsibility. If you borrow money from me, you will feel obligated to pay me back. Because my face will keep floating in front of your eyes or I will knock on your door loudly. It is easier to deny this with a govt. Perhaps that will lead to life changes.

During the tougher times of my life, I didn’t have time to lose myself with drugs or alcohol. I fretted about failing my parents, grandparents, teachers, ancestors, community...if I hadn’t been a wannabe atheist dickhead during my ill spent youth, I guess the thought of failing my faith would have been a weight upon me too.

Recently, I have been exploring ways to re enter my universe of religious/spiritual faith. In my wool gathering, I wondered if communism, socialism, capitalism are all religions too.

it’s the same with relationships between a person and institutions. You have faith in the institution of marriage, the institution of law, the institutions of education, the institutions of trade and commerce etc. No relationship is consummated without a voluntary vesting of power.

Another big one is military and armed forces. I am anti-war and I don’t want to say anything that will even indirectly glorify war connected concepts. But conformity and shared social responsibility is a big thing with people from countries with mandatory draft. We don’t have that either. Most positive behaviours come from negative inputs. I am just pinning it here. It is not something I like to delve into...but to be fair, that we have never had any major wars or mandatory conscription also contributes to the weak social glue.

Faith in government is a form of religion too. The people who pray to the elected god of politics are disappointed when they are not rescued.

The suffering faithful cry out to their gods... why won’t you rescue me? The others wonder how the unblessed have sinned. Some others are smug in their own worship of the gods. Some create new gods. Cults emerge.

When you start thinking of faith in govt as no different from faith in a god/higher power, it won’t be too long before you realize that it is US who have vested power in that institition.

And then there is the issue of contracts. Every relationship is based on an understood contract. Be it a mother/child or a bank/customer.

In most countries..let’s take Scandinavian countries because they are the America’s favourite...the contract is between govt and tax payers. These countries were monarchies initially. The notion of economic social net is a very old one. As is social contracts. They go hand in hand. That America had never had a functioning monarchy and has a diverse expanding population with weak glue could also be a reason.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#255
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What £ of tax would the working class family contribute towards university education (assuming you accept this paradigm of tax and spend)? Back of envelope calculation suggests income tax collected from a median family would be £50 per year. Meanwhile, I know plenty of working class/blue-collar families who believe that debt is an unmanageable risk that they should reject if at all possible. Their children take that…

> Back of envelope calculation suggests income tax collected from a median family would be £50 per year. Back of envelope calculation is definitely wrong. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that £50 figure is definitely not right, without doing any calculation. (OK sure - 50/0.2 = £250 taxed at basic rate above personal allowance. Which this year I think is £12k5, and median household income is…

Ah apologies, I was answering my own question: I meant marginal tax required to pay for university level education in place of current student loans system.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

There is literally no tuition in Sweden. The loans are for rent and general cost of living. You can have literally zero means and still go to university in another city.

When you say literally, what do you mean? Almost or absolutely? Because I get confused, since, literally, literally doesn't mean literally with some people, literally.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#257
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand now that ‘social safety net’ means welfare programs. When I came to this country many years ago, I had a completely diff understanding of what ’social safety net’ meant... to me..how I understood it by my lived experience..it was the social/security net family/friends hold so that if you were unfortunate enough to fall, someone will catch you. Maybe it’s different in India now. But my generation remember…

Here is where structures come into play, though. If you get Section 8 housing assistance in the US, it is illegal to house that relative who needs a hand without an extensive paperwork and approval, which you probably won't get. It is especially difficult if that relative has a drug charge in their past, including "smoking a joint at age 16". (If that relative has a felony drug charge in their past, they also can't g…

> If you get Section 8 housing assistance in the US, it is illegal to house that relative who needs a hand without an extensive paperwork and approval, which you probably won't get.[..]

Isn’t section 8 itself a welfare program?

‘Help’ here should flow down from the haves to have nots. For the have nots to help each other is counter intuitive and counter productive. No solid results. And can be detrimental to the original goal of social welfare.

It dilutes the notion of section 8. If the goal is feeding someone with a bowl of soup so he can be strong enough to start working, then splitting the bowl of soup between three people defeats the purpose. Everyone is still hungry, everyone is too weak to work and nobody achieved their goal. It is a waste of resources.

If one needs to get out of debt, do they go to someone who is debt free or to someone who also needs to get out of debt?

> Many of the things people do to help their families have been made to have bad consequences for poor people in the US. To me, it feels as if there has been a systematic effort to break poor families, take away their ability to help each other, and ensure that they continue to be embroiled in "the system" in the US.[..]

Can you give an example?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#258
Wow, what a great essay Doreen. I would very much like to read something similarly themed, except where you expand the scope from homelessness, up to the entirety of humanity.

So many quotable parts, but this seems like the best one to me:

> I encourage you to see this as a heavy dose of reality concerning where your mental models are broken. The only cure for what ails you is to start getting over your delusions and start adjusting your mental models to come up with a more accurate understanding of reality.

This, taken more generally, seems like good advice for humanity itself. Our model(s) of reality, at the global, national/cultural, all the way down to the individual, are not just wrong, but hilariously wrong. And even more hilarious is that it seems impossible to get humans to acknowledge that reality ("the world", whatever) is a system, that can be modelled (and conceptualized) in extremely high dimensionality, and then examined skilfully. When presented with this perspective, the typical (unconscious, intuitive) response is typically something like accusations of "gaslighting", or "gish-galloping".

How to manage a group of billions of people who seem absolutely determined to ensure that chaos and delusion continue to be the status quo?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and second industrial revolutions made people rush to the cities and created a world where people are « factory workers », with fewer bounds to their origin land and to their family. In parallel, traditional values were criticized by modernity to the point of dismantling them. What we have now in the Western world is not families, it is millions of single independent autonomous actors. They have close friends,…

I think American homelessness is a unique case study. The problem could be its diversity of people. There is more social cohesion and tribal glue that holds together homogenous populations. It has to be something to see the person next to you through the lens of empathy. Usually it has a wide range..DNA, culture, language, education, faith etc. To say that America is ‘diverse’ is just another way of saying that Ameri…

> Recently, I have been exploring ways to re enter my universe of religious/spiritual faith. In my wool gathering, I wondered if communism, socialism, capitalism are all religions too.

I agree with you. I phrase it this way: In the 1500 in Europe, people believed the origin of universal public good came from God, now people believe the state represents public good. It is very dangerous, as in both cases it is reified by humans who clearly don’t only have positive intentions.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#260
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to believe this is hyperbolic. Do you really believe business owners, and landlords are sitting in some smokey room plotting to keep people homeless so people will pay their rent? Really, that is your honest held belief of the situation?

Are you saying that there are not smokey rooms in all countries where they are plotting how to cut public services?

That is a similar, but distinctly different topic.

Indeed, there are always people who are looking to cut public services, but the discussion was about the motive for doing that.

Post reply on HN