Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy' • Hacker News Board

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#51

Post by bergstromm466 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

mathieuh wrote: post #4

I was on heroin for a few years and I live in the UK. I had managed to keep it hidden for maybe 18 months but eventually it become obvious and my mother started organising help. Within a week we had some people from the local drugs outreach charity turn up at the house with free Naloxone IM kits and they trained us how to use them. A couple of weeks after that I was assigned a counsellor whom I would meet regularly a…

> I was on heroin for a few years and I live in the UK. I had managed to keep it hidden for maybe 18 months but eventually it become obvious and my mother started organising help.

I think it's incredibly brave for you to share this, I appreciate you for your honesty and authenticity.

It's very beautiful to me when the universe helps people who've gone through incredibly difficult times to speak their truths out loud, and become advocates for change. I believe this act can help to shine a light in the darkness for others going through similar challenges (for the first time).

> On a global level we need to stop treating addiction as a crime but as a health problem.

100% agree. I believe society would benefit from an expanded definition of the word 'addiction' too:

"Addiction is manifested in any behavior that a person craves, finds temporary relief or pleasure in but suffers negative consequences as a result of, and yet has difficulty giving up. In brief: craving, relief, pleasure, suffering, impaired control. Note that this definition is not restricted to drugs but could encompass almost any human behavior, from sex to eating to shopping to gambling to extreme sports to TV to compulsive internet use: the list is endless.

“I’m not going to ask you what you were addicted to,” I often say to people, “nor when, nor for how long. Only, whatever your addictive focus, what did it offer you? What did you like about it? What, in the short term, did it give you that you craved or liked so much?” And universally, the answers are: “It helped me escape emotional pain… helped me deal with stress… gave me peace of mind… a sense of connection with others… a sense of control.”

Such answers illuminate that the addiction is neither a choice nor a disease, but originates in a human being’s desperate attempt to solve a problem: the problem of emotional pain, of overwhelming stress, of lost connection, of loss of control, of a deep discomfort with the self. In short, it is a forlorn attempt to solve the problem of human pain. Hence my mantra: “The question is not why the addiction, but why the pain.”

And the source of pain is always and invariably to be found in a person’s lived experience, beginning with childhood. Childhood trauma is the template for addiction—any addiction. All addictions are attempts to escape the deep pain of the hurt child, attempts temporarily soothing but ultimately futile. This is no less true of the socially successful workaholic, such as I have been, than of the inveterate shopper, sexual rover, gambler, abject street-bound substance user or stay-at-home mom and user of opioids." [1]

Also I love this talk about alienation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIjvXtZRerY / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs39tNLQss8

[1] Gabor Maté, https://drgabormate.com/opioids-universal-experience-addicti...

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#52

Post by k__ » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 12:35 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #7

"what’s killing what used to be the white working class isn’t diabetes or heart disease or the consumption of fatty foods and Big Gulps that so terrifies Michael Bloomberg, but alcohol-induced liver failure" I never drank much, only 1-2 a month at parties. But man, I'm so glad I quit drinking due to the pandemic... I come from a working class family and many of my grandparents generation died from that.

lol, and now I dreamt I started drinking again.

I hate my brain :D

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#53

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #46

saiya-jin wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcoholism was extremely common in the past from where I come from. High society acceptance as long as the person didn't wreak too much havoc. It has been idolized in folklore songs, books and stories for children. Just part of the life. Kids drank sometimes too. Fast forward today - access to alcohol is even better (apart from minors). Yet society doesn't spiral into alcoholic madness apart form few fringe individua…

Or maybe alcohol isn't quite as addictive and destructive as heroine and other opiates?

That probably depends on the target population as well.

Alcohol seems to be very destructive in Native American communities.

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#54

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:55 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #49

anovikov wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All crime is a consequence of deep-rooted personal issues That is a blanket statement. Yes, i agree with the most crime being like this, and especially almost all or maybe all violent crime, but quite some crime is completely rational. I would commit a crime if it provided a clear benefit outweighing the risks, it's OK to do - it's government's job to organise laws and enforcement system in a way the set of "rationa…

> I would commit a crime if it provided a clear benefit outweighing the risks, it's OK to do Whoa, that's not OK in any meaningful way and I presume you meant it differently compared to how it came out. There are plenty of situations where nobody sees you yet I presume you don't murder folks for 50$ in their wallets, ie somewhere high on the mountain. Its called being sane moral person, pretty low bar for existence i…

Not the OP, but "crime" covers a lot of things and there are victimless crimes out there.

Is it immoral to grow and smoke weed in prohibionist parts of the USA? Is it immoral to have out-of-marriage sex in Saudi Arabia?

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#55

Post by badconvincer » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #27

mathieuh wrote: post #4

I was on heroin for a few years and I live in the UK. I had managed to keep it hidden for maybe 18 months but eventually it become obvious and my mother started organising help. Within a week we had some people from the local drugs outreach charity turn up at the house with free Naloxone IM kits and they trained us how to use them. A couple of weeks after that I was assigned a counsellor whom I would meet regularly a…

> There are almost always deep-rooted issues that the addiction hides, All crime is a consequence of deep-rooted personal issues.[1] Part of the purpose of making something a crime is to put somebody on notice about when personal choices are likely to result in intolerable injury to the public and, hopefully, induce them to reassess their needs and expectations, including recognizing their need for help. And that's t…

In my opinion, the body and mind tell a person exactly what they need to be happy. If we could murder people that offended us, or force sex from a mate we desired, took what we wanted etc. life would be a bed of roses. I genuinely believe the person would be absolutely content. The problem is this is inconsistent with how to live as a society and this is the root of all human suffering.

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#56

Post by tekstar » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #42

tekstar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the details of your surgery but I've been prescribed narcotics three times post-surgery and have always halved my prescribed dosage after day 2 and stopped completely by day 5. Then we bring the extras To get destroyed at a drug drop off (local pharmacies offer this here)

My experience is a weird reverse. I took one after the anesthesia wore off day 1, from then on only took Tylenol because the pain wasn’t that bad and I didn’t want the nausea. Unfortunately night of day 3 pain was worse so I tried the Oxycodone again (it’s mixed with Tylenol so have to choose one or other). No nausea and an impressive night of sleep convinced me to start taking the opioid at nights and Tylenol for wo…

> But I can see why people up their dosages.

I would suggest you REALLY self assess carefully - are you not sleeping because of actual fresh pain? Or are you not sleeping because your body wants a nice fuzzy cloud of opioids to crash on?

Your first night of sober sleep is going to be a bit tougher no matter what, I suggest you try acedominophen and ibuprofen alternating to cut the surgical pain but you'll still need to get through the lack of narcotics

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#57

Post by stefantalpalaru » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #38

mathieuh wrote: post #4

I was on heroin for a few years and I live in the UK. I had managed to keep it hidden for maybe 18 months but eventually it become obvious and my mother started organising help. Within a week we had some people from the local drugs outreach charity turn up at the house with free Naloxone IM kits and they trained us how to use them. A couple of weeks after that I was assigned a counsellor whom I would meet regularly a…

> There are almost always deep-rooted issues that the addiction hides William S Burroughs wrote, at the end of "The Naked Lunch": "Statistically, the people who become addicted to morphine are those who have access to it: doctors, nurses, anyone in contact with black market sources. In Persia, where opium is sold without control in opium shops, 70 per cent of the adult population is addicted. So we should psychoanaly…

> In Persia, where opium is sold without control in opium shops, 70 per cent of the adult population is addicted.

«One of the first scientific descriptions of opium use in Iran was written by Dr. Jacob Eduard Polak (1818–1891), a Jewish Austrian physician who worked in Iran between 1851 and 1860 (1) among teachers of the first Iranian medical school. His detailed description of Iran and Iranians was published as a book with the original title “Persien, das land und seine bewohner.” In this book he wrote: “hashish-cannabis is used by some ethnic groups but opium use is a very popular habit and unlike cannabis it has no negative social stigma or shame for users. It is not forbidden and every Iranian who can afford its cost uses it daily.”» - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4479403/

So it was social stigma, not availability that made the difference.

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#58

Post by rufus_foreman » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

setgree wrote: post #30

Read this when it was in National Review 4 years ago [0]. If you enjoy this, you might also like: "Chaos in the Family, Chaos in the State: The White Working Class’s Dysfunction" https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/03/donald-trump-white-wo... "I am cancer" https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/05/underclass-character-... These are all variations on a theme, which is the rot at the heart of rural America. [0] https://ww…

Even if people are not interested in the theme, they should read the guy. He can write.

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#59

Post by valuearb » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

tekstar wrote: post #56

valuearb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is a weird reverse. I took one after the anesthesia wore off day 1, from then on only took Tylenol because the pain wasn’t that bad and I didn’t want the nausea. Unfortunately night of day 3 pain was worse so I tried the Oxycodone again (it’s mixed with Tylenol so have to choose one or other). No nausea and an impressive night of sleep convinced me to start taking the opioid at nights and Tylenol for wo…

> But I can see why people up their dosages. I would suggest you REALLY self assess carefully - are you not sleeping because of actual fresh pain? Or are you not sleeping because your body wants a nice fuzzy cloud of opioids to crash on? Your first night of sober sleep is going to be a bit tougher no matter what, I suggest you try acedominophen and ibuprofen alternating to cut the surgical pain but you'll still need…

It was the pain, finally fell asleep 3 hours in without taking another. Took one after 4 hours of sleep to help me sleep more but switching to Tylenol in an hour when it expires.

Re: Down Here, They Sometimes Call It 'Boy'

#60

Post by rukuu001 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #38

mathieuh wrote: post #4

I was on heroin for a few years and I live in the UK. I had managed to keep it hidden for maybe 18 months but eventually it become obvious and my mother started organising help. Within a week we had some people from the local drugs outreach charity turn up at the house with free Naloxone IM kits and they trained us how to use them. A couple of weeks after that I was assigned a counsellor whom I would meet regularly a…

> There are almost always deep-rooted issues that the addiction hides William S Burroughs wrote, at the end of "The Naked Lunch": "Statistically, the people who become addicted to morphine are those who have access to it: doctors, nurses, anyone in contact with black market sources. In Persia, where opium is sold without control in opium shops, 70 per cent of the adult population is addicted. So we should psychoanaly…

I think it’s very true that availability and norms will have a lot to do with drug use, and heroin often doesn’t give a second chance to people who are experimenting.

However the with regard to the idea of ‘deep seated issues’ affecting addiction, I believe this is also true.

We have communities here that provide the opportunity for perfect control of substances - they’re remote and access to them is strictly controlled.

There was widespread alcohol addiction in these places. So alcohol was banned, and these places became ‘dry’ communities.

Lacking alcohol, the people turned to inhaling petrol fumes, which created a large social problem.

Eventually, an ‘un-sniffable’ petrol was created to solve this problem. Then the people turned to paint and glue.

It’s recognized that the people in those communities have suffered a deep, inter-generational trauma, which is what drives people to seek ‘numbing’ relief from substances.

However, it’s the belief that reducing availability of substances will solve substance abuse that’s kept the fundamental problems these people have, from being addressed.