Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995) • Hacker News Board

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#361

Post by greenkey » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #261

dan-robertson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish they’d just used scheme

Exactly - rubyscript would have been just as hated as javascript; something like scheme or some other well designed language would have been better.

That’s kind of harsh. Ruby was a great language and especially great syntax. Except for some duplication of methods and early misspelling of one or two methods, it would’ve been much easier for people to learn and do cool things with that didn’t happen in JS until years later.

Scheme’s not bad, but I think if you compare The uptake of both, Ruby did better? (Not counting Lisp.) It was a cool language though; a lot of problems that would’ve been avoided, if people could type all the braces in correctly... for Lisp at least.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#362

Post by gpvos » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #300

mlyle wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could one consider Java a scripting language? It's compiled to .class files, has no reasonable interactivity, strict structure enforced upon the code, etc. E.g. the antithesis of what makes us call something a scripting language in basically every category.

So Java Script meant "complement to Java, but converted to machine language in the browser, instead of compiled?" (Thank you, genuine question)

More like interpreted rather than compiled. (I'm pretty sure a google search on "interpreted versus compiled" will get you up to speed with the basics on this point.) This is generally seen as one of the main differences between "scripting" and "serious" languages.

The twist is that the JVM (Java Virtual Machine) is also a kind of interpreter, but can do on-the-spot ("just-in-time") compilation of parts of the code as well.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#363

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

ezekiel68 wrote: post #330

pjmlp wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android and ripping Sun off. Then they were hoping that no one would buy them, not even themselves cared to own Java after their trick. So now they push Kotlin, while researching Fuchsia, and keep a bunch of lawyers quite happy.

I mean... if we took this version of the narrative at face value, I guess we'd all have been better off with no Compaq and hence no commodity PC clones.

Definitely, I miss Amiga, Atari, Acorn and friends, which Apple is the only surviving one.

I was the only PC guy on my gang, and that was just due to other factors not commodity.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#364

Post by calibas » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #350

calibas wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all semantics, but the idea was that Java is a "real" language for serious use and JavaScript is a "script" that's much easier to use and doesn't involve all the complications of a "real" programming language. It was only kind of true back then, and not even remotely true now. There really isn't a solid line you can draw between a "script" and a "programming language". To me, something like Python is right in…

> There really isn't a solid line you can draw between a "script" and a "programming language" I think it's easier to draw the line if you have the requirements right. That's not the line that was being drawn. it was scripting vs compiled languages. It was very clear then which sides Java and Javascript fell on. There are some weird cases now like compiling scripts into different scripts, but in general it's pretty c…

The great "script vs programming language debate". The difference is clear to you because you have a clear definition in your mind. The problem is that the definition changes depending on who you talk to, which invites endless debate.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#365

Post by xtracto » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #108

Dangeranger wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being limited but safe may be the reason that JavaScript has won out over Java. As I recall, applets turned out to be a security nightmare.

Nah, Java applets lost because of the deployment nightmare they had become after MS was blocked in their attempt to coopt the language (they were barred from shipping incompatible JVMs, so they stopped shipping JVMs and Java IDEs altogether). ActiveX was winning, but that really was a security nightmare. Eventually enough of the useful parts of ActiveX crept into JS enough to build real stuff with it.

And Flash... I think a lot of the commercial use cases that Java was supposed to enable were actually filled by Flash.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#366

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #359

WorldMaker wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implementing it from scratch as a skunkworks reverse engineering project designed to never need to pay license fees upstream.

Despite the license allowing clean room reverse engineering? Sun kindof shot themselves in the foot with those words.

Where on the license? Please.

It explicitly only allowed the use of JavaSE on desktop deployments, OpenJDK was yet to be made available.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#367

Post by xtanx » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

FYI the internet archive is currently having a 2-to-1 matching campaign.

https://archive.org/donate/

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#368

Post by deft » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #284

What stands out to me is how much more foresight they had than I'd thought about the ways JS would be used: > With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the c…

ASP, the original one before .net, had a language called jscript that ran the ie js engine on the server. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#369

Post by xtracto » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

kkotak wrote: post #328

supernova87a wrote: post #290

I'm glad they added all the individual contact information at the bottom -- I'm going call up Mark Benioff at Oracle (415) 506-7000 to ask him how to download the source!

Yep, before the Paypal mafia, there was the Oracle mafia :)

I think technology-wise, the Sun mafia were the cool kids. Or the Silicon Graphic mafia and even Microsoft.

I was born in 1981, and the "cool" technology places to be when I was growing up were Microsoft, Sun and SiliconGraphics.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#370

Post by kccqzy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #346

mlyle wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, if something acts logically like it is run from top to bottom, it's a scripting language. Python scripts and JavaScript are in this category; Java isn't. Additionally, explicit compilation/linking/assembly shouldn't be required for a scripting language, even if the interpreter does stuff kind of like this behind the scenes for performance.

That makes Ocaml and Haskel into scripting languages.

You can't just put `putStrLn "Hello"` in the top level of a Haskell program and expect it to work. You can do it in a REPL, but that's besides the point.