Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995) • Hacker News Board

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#321

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

ezekiel68 wrote: post #313

drblast wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industry is cyclical and to be forward thinking all you have to do is describe what's already happened and assume it will happen again. ;-) The things being done with JavaScript today are not new, nor is the idea that a server and client would coordinate to run interactive apps. That fundamental concept has been reimplemented in many different ways until we've landed on the current rube goldbergian monstrosity th…

I agree with your basic premise. However, in this particular instance, what would have been the historical equivalent ("already happened") of scripts sent by the server to the client during the request response cycle, which could perform layout and logic in the client? If you're simply referring to code that could run on both client and server, your point is clearer to me.

[deleted]

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#322

Post by didip » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

Javascript was such a misopportunity to use Scheme instead.

All three HTML, JS, and CSS could have used one Lisp-like dialect.

Also, I remembered that JS was horribly misunderstood for a long time because people weren’t used to the prototypical inheritance. And this is where jQuery comes in and took JS to the next level.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#323

Post by NegativeLatency » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #284

What stands out to me is how much more foresight they had than I'd thought about the ways JS would be used: > With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the c…

Didn't visual basic support some kind of client side code?

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#324

Post by mlyle » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #300

mlyle wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could one consider Java a scripting language? It's compiled to .class files, has no reasonable interactivity, strict structure enforced upon the code, etc. E.g. the antithesis of what makes us call something a scripting language in basically every category.

So Java Script meant "complement to Java, but converted to machine language in the browser, instead of compiled?" (Thank you, genuine question)

JavaScript is "logically" run line by line from the beginning of the script. This may not be exactly true anymore for performance reasons, but it's the logical model behind it. A single set of expressions to run in order "a=1+1;" is a conformant JavaScript script; hence, it's a scripting language. It doesn't take much imagination about how to have a JavaScript console that operates interactively from user input.

Java code has lots of structure required to write a minimal program. Java is transformed by compilation into a set of .class files. Then, in turn, a loader loads, resolves all the classes, and begins transforming and executing code.

These distinctions can be muddy sometimes.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#325

Post by krapp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

didip wrote: post #322

Javascript was such a misopportunity to use Scheme instead. All three HTML, JS, and CSS could have used one Lisp-like dialect. Also, I remembered that JS was horribly misunderstood for a long time because people weren’t used to the prototypical inheritance. And this is where jQuery comes in and took JS to the next level.

>All three HTML, JS, and CSS could have used one Lisp-like dialect.

Other than being aesthetically pleasing to a demographic of programmers, what would be the benefit? Modern sites already have a problem with JS being used to generate CSS and HTML, and separation of concerns being completely abandoned, and that's just created a mess where three separate, more explicit languages were simpler.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#326

Post by mlyle » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

calibas wrote: post #291

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "script" though? Aren't Java and JavaScript both script(ing languages)? Why not call it e-Java or Java XYZ or something?

This is all semantics, but the idea was that Java is a "real" language for serious use and JavaScript is a "script" that's much easier to use and doesn't involve all the complications of a "real" programming language. It was only kind of true back then, and not even remotely true now. There really isn't a solid line you can draw between a "script" and a "programming language". To me, something like Python is right in…

To me, if something acts logically like it is run from top to bottom, it's a scripting language. Python scripts and JavaScript are in this category; Java isn't.

Additionally, explicit compilation/linking/assembly shouldn't be required for a scripting language, even if the interpreter does stuff kind of like this behind the scenes for performance.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#327

Post by sdenton4 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

calibas wrote: post #291

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "script" though? Aren't Java and JavaScript both script(ing languages)? Why not call it e-Java or Java XYZ or something?

This is all semantics, but the idea was that Java is a "real" language for serious use and JavaScript is a "script" that's much easier to use and doesn't involve all the complications of a "real" programming language. It was only kind of true back then, and not even remotely true now. There really isn't a solid line you can draw between a "script" and a "programming language". To me, something like Python is right in…

I feel like "requires compilation" is a good first order differentiator. And "has a somewhat sane type system" is another.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#328

Post by kkotak » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #290

I'm glad they added all the individual contact information at the bottom -- I'm going call up Mark Benioff at Oracle (415) 506-7000 to ask him how to download the source!

Yep, before the Paypal mafia, there was the Oracle mafia :)

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#329

Post by layer8 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

hi41 wrote: post #301

mlyle wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could one consider Java a scripting language? It's compiled to .class files, has no reasonable interactivity, strict structure enforced upon the code, etc. E.g. the antithesis of what makes us call something a scripting language in basically every category.

Sorry I am not an expert in Java, but doesn’t the jvm execute the .class files like bash would execute the .sh scripts.

Class files contain compiled bytecode, not source code like shell scripts do. “Script” implies human-readable source code. Java bytecode is binary, a kind of portable machine language.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#330

Post by ezekiel68 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #273

hutzlibu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What torpedoes do you mean?

Android and ripping Sun off. Then they were hoping that no one would buy them, not even themselves cared to own Java after their trick. So now they push Kotlin, while researching Fuchsia, and keep a bunch of lawyers quite happy.

I mean... if we took this version of the narrative at face value, I guess we'd all have been better off with no Compaq and hence no commodity PC clones.