Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995) • Hacker News Board

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#301

Post by hi41 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #293

JxLS-cpgbe0 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "script" though? Aren't Java and JavaScript both script(ing languages)? Why not call it e-Java or Java XYZ or something?

How could one consider Java a scripting language? It's compiled to .class files, has no reasonable interactivity, strict structure enforced upon the code, etc. E.g. the antithesis of what makes us call something a scripting language in basically every category.

Sorry I am not an expert in Java, but doesn’t the jvm execute the .class files like bash would execute the .sh scripts.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#302

Post by wayneftw » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #188

netdur wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what? Imagine a world without Javascript? You have mini extension in browser to just auto refresh gmail

Web browsers were not invented to be application platforms. They were intended to view documents and click through them. Server-side applications (CGI) started the trend of the web browser becoming an application interface. Javascript made the web browser the application platform . But of course it was not designed for this, so a million hacks have been added to shore it up. To the point of literally including a stan…

> ...not invented to be application platforms.

Phones were invented to only make phone calls.

Coca-Cola was originally created as a way to counter morphine addiction.

Listerine was originally a floor cleaner.

None of those were turds and neither is the web as an application platform. Quite the opposite- Native apps suck compared to web apps. The only native apps I personally use besides the browser on my phone are Maps, Messages, Slack, Camera/Photos and those are only because there's no other choice. Imagine having to use an app instead of popping open the web browser to order from Amazon? Yeesh

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#303

Post by brundolf » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

drblast wrote: post #294

brundolf wrote: post #284

What stands out to me is how much more foresight they had than I'd thought about the ways JS would be used: > With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the c…

The industry is cyclical and to be forward thinking all you have to do is describe what's already happened and assume it will happen again. ;-) The things being done with JavaScript today are not new, nor is the idea that a server and client would coordinate to run interactive apps. That fundamental concept has been reimplemented in many different ways until we've landed on the current rube goldbergian monstrosity th…

I'm not surprised that the architecture isn't new, I'm surprised that web apps were already being talked about this way using JS specifically. JS's early design flaws are often written off as, "well it was never intended to be a real programming language like it is today". But from reading this, that doesn't sound to be the case.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#304

Post by smm11 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #140

AndrewStephens wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sun seemed to have a real mental block when it came to applets - people screamed at them for years about performance and they refused to do anything about it. Indeed, in 1995 the simpliest applet would take several seconds to appear. In 2005 (about the time everyone stopped caring), the same applet would take ... several seconds to appear. They never got faster even as CPUs improved by several hundred percent. The Ap…

From everything I've touched Sun was always very... Unix in regards to UX. As in "Well, just learn to deal with it. And be grateful you have a graphical interface at all." Making things better, or pushing the state of graphical presentation art never seemed to even be a core interest, much less competency. Which is ironic, because a lot of that organizational choice seems reflected in Java, e.g. having to boil the oc…

Sun briefly toyed with OpenStep, or essentially the UI of the NeXT machines that morphed into today Apple's OS X interface.

Anything would have been better than CDE or OpenWindows at the time, and the NeXT GUI was quite innovative in the 90s.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#305

Post by valw » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

overkill28 wrote: post #36

I still don't know why they stuck the "Java" name on JavaScript. Very confusing when the two languages are completely unrelated. > Java programs and JavaScript scripts are designed to run on both clients and servers, with JavaScript scripts used to modify the properties and behavior of Java objects, so the range of live online applications that dynamically present information to and interact with users over enterpris…

When you're in the business of sneaking in a Scheme-inspired language into the universal programming platform in a world of object-oriented dogma, you'd better add some camouflage ;)

And so the language was compromised in its name, and arguably in its syntax and (lack of) macro system.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#306

Post by samstave » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

in 1997 Iworked at the first firm that adopted XML

Was on a conf call with VPs from Sun, and i said, and I quote myself:

"So youre telling me that you have this shitty b2b system that youre not happy with and you want us to implement XML to accomodate"

and this VP was nixing it the whole time iwth "hand cut across the neck" manurisms...

later I hired Dave Sifry - and had his team implement a b2b FTP between us and sun...

I later went to him and stated " You should really make a linux support company"

Linuxcare was founded, worth unicorn.

I got nothing

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#307

Post by WorldMaker » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #278

pjmlp wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android and ripping Sun off. Then they were hoping that no one would buy them, not even themselves cared to own Java after their trick. So now they push Kotlin, while researching Fuchsia, and keep a bunch of lawyers quite happy.

So implementing and pushing Java in Android was a torpedo against Sun? Interesting logic.

Implementing it from scratch as a skunkworks reverse engineering project designed to never need to pay license fees upstream.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#308

Post by dang » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

Orthw2020 wrote: post #19

What bothers me is that they actually never apologised. A simple statement of acknowledging the damage caused would do!

Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#309

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #296

hutzlibu wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So implementing and pushing Java in Android was a torpedo against Sun? Interesting logic.

Android Java is not Java, and yes when I take someone's product and don't pay what the license specifies, while introducing an incomplete implementation, that is 100% ripping off. Thankfully we are going to have that settled in the near future, and then Android folks can party all night long with their Kotlin implementation and rename ART into KVM.

Despite dalvic and co. it still pushed the Java ecosystem, right?

Not what I would call a tornado in the meaning pf destruction.

And about the license, well, it is disputed, right? I only read about it tangential, but the case seemed far from crystal clear to me.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#310

Post by alasdair_ » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #198

derefr wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically, JavaScript was originally annointed to serve the function within the JVM ecosystem, that ended up being served by Groovy? Why didn’t that happen? And why did it take so long before we got Groovy instead, if Sun wanted was imagining something like it way back in 1995?

Sun had some great people and some good ideas and products, but as a coherent business it was a rolling train wreck.

>Sun had some great people and some good ideas and products, but as a coherent business it was a rolling train wreck.

I had an internship at Sun in 2002. I distinctly remember a town-hall meeting hosted by Johnathan Schwartz (CTO at the time, later to be CEO) where an engineer asked something to the effect of "this all sounds great, but how does this actually make us money?" The engineer was told in no uncertain terms that he shouldn't ask such questions, that he should focus on engineering and that he should trust that other people would handle the money side.