EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#351

Post by vageli » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #277

mikem170 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

There have been studies of this in Finland. When companies require a doctor's note for any and all sick leaves, people will use the maximum amount the doctor prescribes (usually they just slap 3 days on for every sniffle). On the other hand when people can take a handful (1-5) sick days freely, they tend to use just the bare minimum. It's a matter of trust. The company is communicating to the employees that it trusts…

I think you nailed it. When a company stands behind "process", well, they shouldn't be surprised when employees do the same.

At one of my earliest jobs, I would take a short lunch at my desk (I was very young and didn't know better). Management decided that they wanted to gauge how long I was lunching for, and insisted that I clock in and out for lunch. Well, you can be sure that I took the full time allotted to me after that.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#352

Post by ghaff » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #255

ghaff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, when sick and vacation were more typically separate pools, the answer was definitely it depended. It's not hard to find studies showing that Mondays and Fridays saw a disproportionate number (i.e. not just 20%) of single day sick days. And, I'm sure, the pattern wasn't spread evenly across everyone. Personally, although I've fortunately had much need to take an appreciable number of sick days, I favor t…

At this point in the conversation I don't understand why any employee would want them to be separate. Doesn't that just work to the company's benefit? They want you to be there as many days as possible Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit?

The argument for a shared pool from the employee side is "I don't get sick much and, as a shared pool, I almost certainly get more vacation time off than if I had a sick pool and a vacation pool."

However, historically, when the two were commonly separate, the sick time would often actually be a very significant chunk (maybe a month) with the understanding that actually burning through most or all of your sick time would be a rare event because of an operation or whatever.

Just to throw out rough numbers, you might have 4 weeks of a combined PTO pool today. 20 years ago you might have had 3 weeks of vacation time and 4 weeks of sick time.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#353

Post by nickff » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

stainforth wrote: post #261

strictnein wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment. Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans. And that American unions are a very different animal. Until that time, though, keep thinking we're just idiots.

The destruction of unions in America was not for righteous reasons.

Previously-unionized industries declined in America, and new industries have been slow to unionize; I am not sure unions have been 'destroyed'.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#354

Post by GoblinSlayer » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #289

Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

Don't know specifics about you. But officially/legally fixed hours comes with list of measurable tasks that must be completed by certain time. Now in most places I worked things invariably get delayed due to vendors, other teams, servers, network issues and so on. When issues are finally resolved one is expected to complete allocated task in 'extra' time. Saying that my 35 hours are over is not gonna cut in my experi…

Granted, in USA you're paid 10 times more than in the rest of the world.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#355

Post by aaaxyz » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #174

Hamuko wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

Why would you ever sign an employment contract that does not even mention overtime?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#356

Post by GekkePrutser » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

I don't really need that. My work is my hobby and even before Corona things were intermixed completely.

If someone pings me at 11pm from the US with a major issue and I have nothing better to do, Call of Duty can wait till tomorrow :P I like helping people and it helps relax my mind knowing that in the morning there hasn't been a major escalation building up over the last 8 hours. And they know I'm in Europe so they won't bother me if it's not urgent.

On the other side, if I need to go to the bank or doctor during the day I'll just schedule a meeting. No need to book time off. I love this flexibility. My boss is totally OK with this (and judging by his Yammer/Email activity, he does the exact same). My role is global so I always have colleagues working somewhere around the globe.

Of course it's not that easy for everyone. Some people have a life, kids etc. But it should remain a choice, that's my point. I happen to like a 24-hour society. That also happens.

I heard that in some countries like France and Germany some companies force email to stop working during the weekend. I wouldn't want this. Especially with Covid right now I have very little to go outside for, so the weekends are super boring.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#357

Post by eeZah7Ux » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

stainforth wrote: post #261

strictnein wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment. Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans. And that American unions are a very different animal. Until that time, though, keep thinking we're just idiots.

The destruction of unions in America was not for righteous reasons.

The level of anti-union violence in US is higher that what people might think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#358

Post by aaaxyz » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #332

gtfoutttt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

Are you familiar with the mythical man month? Hiring more people might not get the same amount done as a few working really hard. That said, burnout can make working harder worse than working a sane amount. But that doesn’t fall on the employer as much as the employee.

>Hiring more people might not get the same amount done as a few working really hard.

That is highly dependent on when the new employee is added to the project. If it's done early (as a result of proper planning), it's most likely not gonna hurt.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#359

Post by Tagbert » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

Most managers in our org accept this at the employee’s discretion as part of a flex time policy where employees can use work time to handle personal issues even taking off large chunks of a day if needed.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#360

Post by cr1895 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

mediascreen wrote: post #234

Gwypaas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or simply add some flexibility. The rules are similar in Sweden, with the caveat that if an employer suspects that an employee actually is not sick they can demand a doctor's note which the employer then pays for. If the note shows that the employee cheated you get a warning. If the action is repeated then a doctor's note can be required from day one. Start with good faith, but add some flexibility.

One weird thing here in Sweden, is that you can take sick leave from your vacation. So if you get the flu during your vacation you can call in sick and not use your vacation days while you are sick. I have never heard of anyone doing this though and I would personally be too embarrassed to use the system in that way.

It's the same in the Netherlands.