EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#291

Post by Mauricebranagh » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

cutitout wrote: post #94

I'm very happy to see that the German tax break is basically the opposite of what Deutsche Bank Research suggested, namely extra taxes for people who WFH, because they "contribute less public transport and the economy", and should "pay a tax for that privilege". They suggested the employer pay it, but still. https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/...

I suspect that was a proposition from some out of touch internal bank junior who had no idea how badly that would go down with the general public let alone the whole "bringing the employer into disrepute" aspect.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#292

Post by IanCal » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #204

Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday"

"Tell whoever is on call to deal with it"

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#293

Post by colejohnson66 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

ingvul wrote: post #274

colejohnson66 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

In which country are you working? My full-time work contract explicitly says that I will receive X EUR/year for working 40h/week. So, yes, they are paying for hours worked.

USA. Should’ve mentioned that.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#294

Post by chrisdone » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

SmokeyHamster wrote: post #210

Rights should be restrictions on government. Not mandates on personal and private business behavior. I'm not even sure what is driving this. The EU already has a very lax work ethic. Is there really a problem in Europe with people having to be connected when not at work? What about the jobs that require a person be on-call?

That may be a cultural difference. You may see the EU as having a "very lax work ethic", but in my experience working in the EU, they see America (and Britain) as having an unhealthy work obsession.

(Work to live vs live to work, perhaps.)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#295

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #139

MereInterest wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with that, so long as there is also a reasonable amount of vacation time. The US really needs to get with the times and have basic workers' rights. Currently, the average number of vacation days per year in the US (17 days), is less than the statutory minimum number of days in many countries. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/statista-how-far-behind-us-i...

So looking at UK labor law, do bank holidays count? "An employer can choose to include bank holidays as part of a worker’s statutory annual leave." https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights Because if so, they don't count in the US. So the US would be 17 days of vacation plus statutory holidays. At my job I get 25 days off, plus 13 statutory holidays, so 38 days a year off, paid.

Most everyone in the US that does not work in an office setting do not get paid for government holidays that they do not work. For example, at stores, restaurants, grocery stores, movie theaters, hotels, etc.

And there is no legal requirement to pay anyone for any government holiday that they do not work either. Many times, the people that do work on government holidays also do not get paid any extra for working on a holiday.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#296

Post by carabiner » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

This will hinder startups in the EU. Not saying there's a right or wrong way of life; choose to take it easy or hustle all the time, it's up to you. But this is certainly inhospitable for large swaths of companies trying to innovate.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#297

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

jchrisa wrote: post #190

bobthechef wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize with the need to push back on bad management, the situation is a bit like being between a rock (bad management) and a hard place (unions). Tyranny of the few vs. tyranny of the majority or the mob. The latter is worse. It's also kind of a mediocre bandaid for deeper social problems. An employer that can get away with asking you to do unreasonable amounts of work, work ridiculous hours, or achieve i…

Solving the market failure looks like UBI. I bet a lot of people who think unions are tyranny really don't like the idea of "free money".

This is a bizarre generalization. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who supported UBI before its moment in the political spotlight in the last five years are not as sanguine about unions as the average person on the left. This certainly describes me: I believe in heavy redistribution and taxation (especially of land!) but think that the left (which I consider myself a part of) has a consistent problem with being too arrogant to recognize how complex people's lives are, and damaging the worse-off in the name of helping them.

Insisting that support for unions and support for UBI must be linked is the same energy as insisting that more tightly restricting what food stamp recipients can buy is "helping" them.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#298

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #272

Regulations like these are not necessary if we were only respecting human beings. About 15 years ago in civil engineering there was great hesitance asking workers to work on weekends or stay late. And there was much appreciation of you did. Now I feel that is fading as we transition to more "manage the computer" culture. Today, you lose respect if you don't engage periodically during off hours. Just respect the human…

[deleted]

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#299

Post by tzs » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

I check email and sometimes answer when on vacation, because often 10 minutes spent addressing a small issue while I'm away prevents several days or a week or two of dealing with a huge issue when I get back.

I'm the guy who if something messes up has to go through the databases trying to figure out what data is incorrect, and goes through logs and reports to try to infer what the data should be, and then figure out a way to fix it.

If I know it is starting to happen, and it isn't something I can quickly suggest how to fix or at least how to temporarily stop until I get back, I can at least usually tell someone what extra logging to add so that I'll have an easier time later on the cleanup.

I'd rather lose 10 minutes during my vacation than get back and immediately be made miserable enough to need another vacation.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#300

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #299

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

I check email and sometimes answer when on vacation, because often 10 minutes spent addressing a small issue while I'm away prevents several days or a week or two of dealing with a huge issue when I get back. I'm the guy who if something messes up has to go through the databases trying to figure out what data is incorrect, and goes through logs and reports to try to infer what the data should be, and then figure out…

That's a management issue of having no redundancy for someone performing something so crucial. If you're that crucial to operations, then you should be paid extremely lavishly, or be the owner, otherwise you're getting the short end of the stick.