EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#271

Post by theshrike79 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

skohan wrote: post #246

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week.

It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway.

Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either country isn't scaling relative to the hours used.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#272

Post by nashashmi » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

Regulations like these are not necessary if we were only respecting human beings.

About 15 years ago in civil engineering there was great hesitance asking workers to work on weekends or stay late. And there was much appreciation of you did.

Now I feel that is fading as we transition to more "manage the computer" culture.

Today, you lose respect if you don't engage periodically during off hours.

Just respect the human being for sakes.

I remember a time when companies would have call centers across the US in different time zones to offer 24 hour service. What happened to that?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#273

Post by container » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #204

Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

I wouldn't start too much speculation around a comment that started with 'probably'. But in any case, I'm also a Finn, and my contract also refers to that agreement. Still, I don't think I even know anyone who just drops what they're doing when their hours are up for the day or the week. It seems that everyone's working around the clock, even on weekends and holidays. And just like you would expect by now, people take pride in it and boast about it too. Sure, that's pathological, but I really can't even imagine working 9 to 5 and then disconnecting for the rest of the time, union or not. I think you're considered exceptional in Finnish IT if you can do that.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#274

Post by ingvul » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #174

Hamuko wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

In which country are you working? My full-time work contract explicitly says that I will receive X EUR/year for working 40h/week. So, yes, they are paying for hours worked.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#275

Post by mrozbarry » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

Here are some simple rules to keep working at home sane:

1. Work in a place that you don't normally use to relax when you would get home from work. Maybe a spare bedroom, maybe the kitchen with a stool. 2. Start work on time, and keep your schedule as non-pandemic-y as possible. Don't sleep in until a minute before work, but get up and pretend to do your commute. Make sure you make your coffee early, too. 3. When your done work on the clock, STOP ANSWERING EMAILS/SLACK/WHATEVER IS WORK RELATED. Now you're home for real.

I've worked on and off remote in software, and has saved my sanity every single time. The biggest thing is people are afraid to say no, but in reality, if your boss asks you to do work after you're done your day, either ask for overtime or don't even answer it. It's not your responsibility to work when you're off the clock. If your work would force you to work after-hours even before the pandemic, then there are a few problems: the bosses don't understand the work you do, they don't respect your time, and/or you enable them by working beyond your hours.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#276

Post by fastball » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #86

alias_neo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not crea…

This is why I said does not hold for everyone. It is dependent on location of the person, income, family situation, housing, etc.

Right, but maybe that's why a top-down approach like this is a bad one?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#277

Post by theshrike79 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #53

matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

There have been studies of this in Finland.

When companies require a doctor's note for any and all sick leaves, people will use the maximum amount the doctor prescribes (usually they just slap 3 days on for every sniffle).

On the other hand when people can take a handful (1-5) sick days freely, they tend to use just the bare minimum.

It's a matter of trust. The company is communicating to the employees that it trusts them to take the appropriate amount of sick days and conversely people don't abuse the trust.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#278

Post by fastball » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

daxfohl wrote: post #221

Hopefully this can reduce the number of globally distributed teams. I mean, I love the global teams I'm working with but the need for after hours meetings is not worth it. I'm not really a big pro nationalism person, but at least a preference to being in the same time zone makes sense.

Yes, I too love it when legislation discourages people from working with others around the world.

We will never achieve world peace if we let people from different timezones collaborate.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#279

Post by ravenstine » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

While I like the EU's effort, I have to wonder how much of this is the responsibility of the individual.

> I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing.

We certainly all know people like this. But, at what point should employees outright refuse to be connected to work on personal time?

I get that people whom have families that depend on them have limited choice in how far they can rebel at work, but perhaps we need young people to be a part of a new culture of work-life balance where interacting with work during any unpaid hours is seen as optional. Only those who have little to lose can stand up to corporate and make a difference.

Personally, I wouldn't work for an employer that wants free time from me. If that means I don't make a lot of money, that's fine by me. Time has value.

Having regulation around this issue can help with professions like the legal profession where the real way up the ladder is by overworking in whatever way possible. For people such as myself, an engineer, where overwork and brown-nosing don't have a 1-to-1 relation with a bigger paycheck or greater job stability, they have more leverage over what their employer can or cannot do to them.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#280

Post by ingvul » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #204

Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday".

It depends. If it's the first time production is down and I'm already off, I fix the issue. Once it's fixed I'll tell my manager: "we need on-call people. Please don't consider me for that position because I value more my free-time than money. Thanks". The second time production is down, I won't fix it.

If they fire me because I don't do on-call, then again it depends. I would revisit my contract and if it doesn't say anything about being on-call I would point that out. In any case, I would start to look for a new job asap.